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Now I may simply come accross as a butthurt imperialist (God Save King George y'all) but I was rather upset when reading Wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_and_ethnicity_in_the_United_States

More specifically it was this chart formed by data from the US Census:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Census-2000-Data-Top-US-Ancestries-by-County.svg

Now obviously it's only the majority groups that are coloured on the map, so I didn't fret... but then you look at the percentages of those who self-identify themselves as English in origin: 8.7%

I suppose that's still pretty high, considering the number of immigrants the US has had over the last 200 years... but err, what I want to know is; are Englishmen still present in the Thirteen Colonies in large numbers?

I think the South is interesting on the map at least, as large numbers consider themselves "American" in origin... So unless the Indian Nations have made a resurgence, I am presuming that there may be a lot of Europeans who simply shed their origins?

But my final most controversial thought is: Why are there so many self-admitted Germans? Obviously lots of German-Americans went out there to farm, but if, say, people are shedding their heritage and calling themselves "Americans"; why are Germans still the largest ethnic group? Perhaps Mr. Paranoid in me is all upset that people might no longer be calling themselves English-Americans but are perfectly happy to remain as Germans?

Not that I have anything against Germans, afamof I get out of being called racist now by citing the fact that I myself am a German-Briton with family hailing from Hamburg. Muahahaha.

Perhaps the most pressing question is why ol' whitey (myself included) are so preoccupied with race.. dang.

Not quite sure what you are getting at here. . .

Might've been a tad pointless, as I was writing it out I arrived at the conclusion that it actually wasn't so surprising... So I suppose I lost conviction...

I'd originally just been skipping about Wikipedia, happened upon that and wondered why there were so few self-identified Englishmen in the US. Now I pretty much realise that although some may no longer self-identify that way, European immigration has simply taken its effect and I suppose 8.6% is still a pretty substantial number.

Short answer: Pointless self-answered rant?

Hmmmmm. . . okay.

Well... no, there's not that many people who identify themselves as descended from the English, specifically. People are much more likely to say they're Irish or Scottish.

I suppose that's also more likely to be true, in light of the famine for the former.

Henners91 wrote:But my final most controversial thought is: Why are there so many self-admitted Germans? Obviously lots of German-Americans went out there to farm, but if, say, people are shedding their heritage and calling themselves "Americans"; why are Germans still the largest ethnic group? Perhaps Mr. Paranoid in me is all upset that people might no longer be calling themselves English-Americans but are perfectly happy to remain as Germans?

Germans tend to be more recent immigrants, at least in my part of the country.

My grandparents came to the US between WWI & WWII from Germany. The English side of my family had already been here for 100+ years. I would self-identify as a German descendent, although I think I said "non-slavic caucasian transplant" on my census form. Might have put "visigoth," I don't really recall.

Oh... I had been under the impression that they'd all come to the midwest during the the 19th century.

Did things calm down *after* WWI then? I've been revising for a university exam and it just detailed all the vigilante groups hanging Germans and dragging one trade unionist behind a car until their knee caps ground off and then hanging him afterward.

Henners91 wrote:Now I may simply come accross as a butthurt imperialist (God Save King George y'all) but I was rather upset when reading Wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_and_ethnicity_in_the_United_States

More specifically it was this chart formed by data from the US Census:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Census-2000-Data-Top-US-Ancestries-by-County.svg

Now obviously it's only the majority groups that are coloured on the map, so I didn't fret... but then you look at the percentages of those who self-identify themselves as English in origin: 8.7%

I suppose that's still pretty high, considering the number of immigrants the US has had over the last 200 years... but err, what I want to know is; are Englishmen still present in the Thirteen Colonies in large numbers?

I think the South is interesting on the map at least, as large numbers consider themselves "American" in origin... So unless the Indian Nations have made a resurgence, I am presuming that there may be a lot of Europeans who simply shed their origins?

But my final most controversial thought is: Why are there so many self-admitted Germans? Obviously lots of German-Americans went out there to farm, but if, say, people are shedding their heritage and calling themselves "Americans"; why are Germans still the largest ethnic group? Perhaps Mr. Paranoid in me is all upset that people might no longer be calling themselves English-Americans but are perfectly happy to remain as Germans?

Not that I have anything against Germans, afamof I get out of being called racist now by citing the fact that I myself am a German-Briton with family hailing from Hamburg. Muahahaha.

Perhaps the most pressing question is why ol' whitey (myself included) are so preoccupied with race.. dang.

That doesn't appear to include 2010 data, which should make you cry even more (tee hee).

I literally don't know anyone who's ancestors came from England.

Henners91 wrote:Oh... I had been under the impression that they'd all come to the midwest during the the 19th century.

Did things calm down *after* WWI then? I've been revising for a university exam and it just detailed all the vigilante groups hanging Germans and dragging one trade unionist behind a car until their knee caps ground off and then hanging him afterward.

There was a lot of hostility towards Germans during WWII, but between the wars it was lessened, but there was still some hostility towards them. There were even German internment camps during WWII.

Where is the Anglo Americans?

Henners91 wrote:I think the South is interesting on the map at least, as large numbers consider themselves "American" in origin... So unless the Indian Nations have made a resurgence, I am presuming that there may be a lot of Europeans who simply shed their origins?

Germany has existed for about a century less than the United States, as has Italy, and the United Kingdom is less than a century older than the United States. I find it kind of odd that you accept people identifying themselves as 'German' without a second though, and presumably accept 'British' (meaning from the UK, since no one says 'United Kingdomer'), but people identifying as 'American' is weird to you. Why is it not surprising that people ditched Hannovarian, Pommeranian, or Prussian for 'German', but is that people ditched old labels they don't have any connection to for 'American'? There's a mental block where Europeans tend to think of all European countries as 'old' and the US as this brand new temporary thing, and I think it throws people off when thinking about stuff like this. Also Europeans tend to consider each country as a distinct race, while Americans tend to see Europe as a bunch of white guys (or maybe white guys and swarthy white guys if you're being really picky) and think of race in terms of white, black, asian, hispanic, and indian.

When it's been so long since the original family immigrated that all of the immigrants and their children and in some cases their grandchildren and great-grandchildren are dead of old age, what does where some distant relatives immigrated from have to do with your current identity? Especially if you look back on your family tree and to figure out what 'race' you are you've got to start using eighths and sixteenths. My distant relatives immigrated from Norway, but I don't know any Norwegian, keep any Norwegian customs, probably aren't even half Norwegian or have any particular preference for spending time with people of Norwegian descent, so why would I self-identify as that instead of American?

There's a few things to consider:

1) The people who actually came from England to America was never particularly large in number, and took place over 200 years ago.

2) There is still a large concentration of "English" in New England (the name gives it away). It looks rather insignificant on the map, but the population concentration is much much much higher there than in anywhere else in the country. It's like comparing England to Siberia on a map and assuming there's way more Russians in Europe, simply because it's so large.

3) Maybe Americans are just more accurate than English? After all, the Normans, the Saxons, and the Angles are all Germanic tribes. The people currently living in England are all of Germany ancestry. You kicked the native English population into Scotland, Ireland, and Wales.

I identify myself as American.

I do as well, but then, I don't know my lineage.

whitedragon wrote:I identify myself as American.

Texan
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V0LnW_5r9gM

I'm a proud Mutt...

My Mothers Grandmother came to America from Germany after WW1

All My Great Grandfathers /Grandfathers people on my Mothers side of the Family are all coonass..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coonass

My Fathers Father moved to New Orleans from a reservation in Oklahoma in the after WWII..

My Father and Mother met (as teenagers) when my Fathers Father did some repairs on the bakery an Uncle on my Mothers side owned after Hurricane Betsy...I showed up a few years later.

BearersOfSalvation wrote:

Henners91 wrote:I think the South is interesting on the map at least, as large numbers consider themselves "American" in origin... So unless the Indian Nations have made a resurgence, I am presuming that there may be a lot of Europeans who simply shed their origins?

Germany has existed for about a century less than the United States, as has Italy, and the United Kingdom is less than a century older than the United States. I find it kind of odd that you accept people identifying themselves as 'German' without a second though, and presumably accept 'British' (meaning from the UK, since no one says 'United Kingdomer'), but people identifying as 'American' is weird to you. Why is it not surprising that people ditched Hannovarian, Pommeranian, or Prussian for 'German', but is that people ditched old labels they don't have any connection to for 'American'? There's a mental block where Europeans tend to think of all European countries as 'old' and the US as this brand new temporary thing, and I think it throws people off when thinking about stuff like this. Also Europeans tend to consider each country as a distinct race, while Americans tend to see Europe as a bunch of white guys (or maybe white guys and swarthy white guys if you're being really picky) and think of race in terms of white, black, asian, hispanic, and indian.

When it's been so long since the original family immigrated that all of the immigrants and their children and in some cases their grandchildren and great-grandchildren are dead of old age, what does where some distant relatives immigrated from have to do with your current identity? Especially if you look back on your family tree and to figure out what 'race' you are you've got to start using eighths and sixteenths. My distant relatives immigrated from Norway, but I don't know any Norwegian, keep any Norwegian customs, probably aren't even half Norwegian or have any particular preference for spending time with people of Norwegian descent, so why would I self-identify as that instead of American?

I said English, not British.

As for the German states, by the 19th century (when many were going over) Germans considered themselves German (think revolutions of 1848) but weren't united as such... And before that the German states had presented a united foreign policy through the Holy Roman Empire.

Though I'll say touche to your second point, I suppose America is old enough to consider itself a country... Bah.... Though my thoughts were concerning *origins*, but I suppose it's long enough for some people to forget.

Interesting stories from the others though

Peoples identity is an interesting subject. I am sure the vast majority of European Americans will have English ansestry but either do not know or have created a new identity for themselves (American). Much like the Australians although I do believe they recognise their roots a bit more. Just find it funny how other cultures, esp chinese, move to other parts of the world but retain their identity, but not European settlers. USA, Argentina, Canada, New Zealand, Australia all forged new identities.

Oh god I really do love my geography, just get me a tweed jacket and i will teach your kids for free!

It's difficult because of the amount of mixing. I'm American, but if you ask again I'm English, Irish, Scottish ,German ,Italian ,and Prussian. Religiously I'm Irish Catholic and have 7 older brothers and sisters, we kind of look like different nationalities of the same person. I claim Scottish because I'm large, have reddish hair and bagpipes make my blood boil. Some of my siblings look very German and Italian.

The way things are going my kids are gonna be, English, Irish, Scottish, German, Italian, Prussian and Indian.

So, I think we can just go with American, unless someone really wants us to be specific.

I consider myself American, although I'm straight up Irish and Latvian, 50/50. My mom is 1st generation American. And although I do know a bit of Latvian, and we do practice some Latvian "traditions", I still consider myself American, not "half Latvian, half Irish."

Henners91 wrote:Though my thoughts were concerning *origins*, but I suppose it's long enough for some people to forget.

The trick is that you're treating modern day European countries as a special case for 'origins', while most people in the US don't. There's little reason to accord them that sort of special treatment, it's just that they're what's near you and recent in the past so you see them differently. You think that people identifying as of 'German' or 'French' or 'italian' heritage are going back to their roots, but really nationalism only started in the 18th century and really got going in the 19th - before that people didn't really identify with what are countries now, they thought of their origin as something more local, generally something that's a provence now. It's really more surprising that people who's families were in Germany for only a generation or so keep identifying their origin as 'German' over a century later.

It also doesn't really make sense to identify your 'origin' as coming from an particular European country when your great-great-great-great grandfather moved over a long time ago, married a girl from a different country, then each generation married other people of mixed origins, all the while speaking English and adopting the customs of the area where they lived. If you make a strong effort to stay with people from a given origin, then you might keep that as part of your identity, but past a certain point all the mixing makes it meaningless. And don't forget that second larges ethnic group over here had their ties with any origins forcibly cut when they were sold into slavery, so have to either come up with rather arbitrary connections to somewhere in Africa to have an origin, or think of themselves as 'American' in origin.

My dads English (newcastle) but my moms from here. Why he decided to move to arizona i'll never know. Though i do have him to thank for my love of tea

*Takes deep breath*

There is a good reason for so many germans.

During the 17th and 18th centuries the US was pulling about 8000 immigrants per year, almost exclusively from Britain and northern europe.

Then in the early 19th century the immigration numbers started spiking, the vast majority from german speaking areas (as there was no germany at the time).Germans were the number 1 immigrant group for almost 70 years, peaking at 1.2 million per year, until just before the civil war when the irish started flooding over to due to the potato famine.
Even then the germans were neck and naeck with the irish.

Most of the male germans emmigrating were farmers pushed off the land by famine and nobles enlarging their estates, but rather than flooding to the cities as happened in the UK they went to America (primarily the norh via NYC) and their peak emmigration corresponded with the opening up of the States around the great lakes and the mid west after the civil war (Which eplains why so many germans in those locations). So asfarmers, they went out and farmed. And had big families (No 40k to cause young men to sit at home painting models, or OT forums to discuss US immigration stats)

When the German Confederation was formed and then the Empire, numbers dropped. Also due to improving conditionsin Ireland they to dropped off.
The Italians then started pouring in primarily from the poorer south.
Lastly came the eastern European Jews right at the end of the 19th cetury and into the early 20th century.
WW1 led to aloot of central european refugees (including germans) so that caused a short sharp burst of those peoples.

There are a heap of scandinavians in the northern mid west and dakota as they had a big influx over about 20 years, corresponding with land release, that were advertised in scandinavia to get more farmers over.

rubiksnoob wrote:and we do practice some Latvian "traditions"

Yeah, that's a common thing here.

Thing is, America is different, culturally, from Europe-- in that (despite the news' scaremongering) we tend to actually be pretty accepting of immigrants and their practicing of their own culture. It's pretty much expected, nay, even celebrated that an immigrant family will keep their traditions even as they integrate into the US .

In truth, Europe is far more xenophobic than the US is when it comes to the issue of integration. Not sure about the UK, but mainland Europe is definitely this way.

BearersOfSalvation wrote:

Henners91 wrote:Though my thoughts were concerning *origins*, but I suppose it's long enough for some people to forget.

The trick is that you're treating modern day European countries as a special case for 'origins', while most people in the US don't. There's little reason to accord them that sort of special treatment, it's just that they're what's near you and recent in the past so you see them differently. You think that people identifying as of 'German' or 'French' or 'italian' heritage are going back to their roots, but really nationalism only started in the 18th century and really got going in the 19th - before that people didn't really identify with what are countries now, they thought of their origin as something more local, generally something that's a provence now. It's really more surprising that people who's families were in Germany for only a generation or so keep identifying their origin as 'German' over a century later.

It also doesn't really make sense to identify your 'origin' as coming from an particular European country when your great-great-great-great grandfather moved over a long time ago, married a girl from a different country, then each generation married other people of mixed origins, all the while speaking English and adopting the customs of the area where they lived. If you make a strong effort to stay with people from a given origin, then you might keep that as part of your identity, but past a certain point all the mixing makes it meaningless. And don't forget that second larges ethnic group over here had their ties with any origins forcibly cut when they were sold into slavery, so have to either come up with rather arbitrary connections to somewhere in Africa to have an origin, or think of themselves as 'American' in origin.

Well it wasn't until the 19th century that non-British emigration to the Thirteen Colonies got into swing... I can't really comment on the other colonies. So I don't think the nationalism point exactly holds water.

But the mixing point is fair enough.

@Melissia

That's interesting, I can't really express much of an opinion on that topic other than asking how people thus view the pledge of allegiance... I mean, I know there was a time (WWI) when immigrants were expected to renounce their pasts and embrace Americanism (at least according to some academics I'm reading atm) but I suppose a more modern view is that it's rather an oath of loyalty than a cleansing of the past?

Thing is, America is different, culturally, from Europe-- in that (despite the news' scaremongering) we tend to actually be pretty accepting of legal immigrants and their practicing of their own culture. It's pretty much expected, nay, even celebrated that a legal immigrant family will keep their traditions even as they integrate into the US .

Andrew1975 wrote:Thing is, America is different, culturally, from Europe-- in that (despite the news' scaremongering) we tend to actually be pretty accepting of legal immigrants and their practicing of their own culture. It's pretty much expected, nay, even celebrated that a legal immigrant family will keep their traditions even as they integrate into the US .

I find this to be true in most cases,the neighborhood in which my family lives is very culturally diverse,and by and large everyone seems to get on very well.....Greek,Asian,Indian,Hispanic,African and Europian "celebrations" throughout the area are enjoyed by a plethora of different cultures frequently...
...As I type this,my Daughter (who is of quite "mixed" heritage) is outside my window playing with several other children ( Asian,Hispanic,Black and White)...Apparently...despite what one may see on the news...the "melting pot" isn't "Boiling over".

FITZZ wrote:

Andrew1975 wrote:Thing is, America is different, culturally, from Europe-- in that (despite the news' scaremongering) we tend to actually be pretty accepting of legal immigrants and their practicing of their own culture. It's pretty much expected, nay, even celebrated that a legal immigrant family will keep their traditions even as they integrate into the US .

I find this to be true in most cases,the neighborhood in which my family lives is very culturally diverse,and by and large everyone seems to get on very well.....Greek,Asian,Indian,Hispanic,African and Europian "celebrations" throughout the area are enjoyed by a plethora of different cultures frequently...
...As I type this,my Daughter (who is of quite "mixed" heritage) is outside my window playing with several other children ( Asian,Hispanic,Black and White)...Apparently...despite what one may see on the news...the "melting pot" isn't "Boiling over".

That's not really my quote, it was Melissa's. I agree with it whole heartedly, I just thought it needed some qualifiers, maybe to explain why some people might see America as xenophobic. As for neighbors, I love Slavic neighbors. There is nothing like shoveling the sidewalks drinking your neighbors homemade Shlevovitz. You end up shoveling the whole neighborhoods sidewalks and sometimes the streets.

BearersOfSalvation wrote:
Germany has existed for about a century less than the United States, as has Italy, and the United Kingdom is less than a century older than the United States.

Germany, the state, is about a century younger than the US, but Germany the nation is far, far older. There's a reason that people used to talk about a unified Germany in language similar to that used to discuss a unified China; it was a land of one people with many rulers.