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Hamburgers = American food.
Germans = brought over hamburgers.

therefore, America loves Germans, with a slight period of paranoia in the first half of the 20th century, which lead to some funny renaming structures.
Germantown became Americatown
Saurkraut became freedom cabbage
and brats became liberty sausage.

Hey, without the German immigrants, no brats, burgers, or saurkraut. Hip-hip hooray!

'German Shepherd' = Police Dog

Henners91 wrote:'German Shepherd' = Police Dog

And police dogs are nice and friendly, and when they get brought around, all the annoying pot heads and druggies are arrested, and no longer bother us! What's not to like?

Hamburgers = American food.
Germans = brought over hamburgers.

Well to be fair, the German hamburger steak is very different from the American invention of the hamburger.

Andrew1975 wrote:

Hamburgers = American food.
Germans = brought over hamburgers.

Well to be fair, the German hamburger steak is very different from the American invention of the hamburger.

Yeah, but since when has America ever checked their facts instead of relying on gut impulses?

micahaphone wrote:

Andrew1975 wrote:

Hamburgers = American food.
Germans = brought over hamburgers.

Well to be fair, the German hamburger steak is very different from the American invention of the hamburger.

Yeah, but since when has America ever checked their facts instead of relying on gut impulses?

No just pointing out that a lot of ethnic food is really American and while I don't know if you could call it reinvention, it is certainly revolutionary in that the differences are quite striking.
Case in point.
Chinese food
Pizza
Hamburger
Nachos
Chimichanga

The list goes on.

Take a slice of Papa John's to Italy and they will have no idea what it is.

micahaphone wrote:

Henners91 wrote:'German Shepherd' = Police Dog

And police dogs are nice and friendly, and when they get brought around, all the annoying pot heads and druggies are arrested, and no longer bother us! What's not to like?

Completely off topic, but apparently police dogs aren't really that good at detecting drugs. What they are good at is detecting subtle signals from their handler.

biccat wrote:

micahaphone wrote:

Henners91 wrote:'German Shepherd' = Police Dog

And police dogs are nice and friendly, and when they get brought around, all the annoying pot heads and druggies are arrested, and no longer bother us! What's not to like?

Completely off topic, but apparently police dogs aren't really that good at detecting drugs. What they are good at is detecting subtle signals from their handler.

#NotIntendedToBeAFactualStatement

You forgot that!

Andrew1975 wrote:Thing is, America is different, culturally, from Europe-- in that (despite the news' scaremongering) we tend to actually be pretty accepting of legal immigrants and their practicing of their own culture. It's pretty much expected, nay, even celebrated that a legal immigrant family will keep their traditions even as they integrate into the US .

Well yeah.

Seriously, non-US citizens might get the wrong impression about the illegal immigrant issue. Here, we love our immigrants! But we hate criminals. And illegal immigrants are criminals (thus why they're called ILLEGAL immigrants).

Melissia wrote:

Andrew1975 wrote:Thing is, America is different, culturally, from Europe-- in that (despite the news' scaremongering) we tend to actually be pretty accepting of legal immigrants and their practicing of their own culture. It's pretty much expected, nay, even celebrated that a legal immigrant family will keep their traditions even as they integrate into the US .

Well yeah.

Seriously, non-US citizens might get the wrong impression about the illegal immigrant issue. Here, we love our immigrants! But we hate criminals. And illegal immigrants are criminals (thus why they're called ILLEGAL immigrants).

No, I agree , I just didn't want to take the credit for your sentiment.

My great grandfather forbid my grandfather from learning Italian becuase bringing one's old culture with them was so popular. *rolls eyes and adds this bit in case the sarcasm wasn't obvious but then your all a pretty deft bunch so I don't need to spell it out for you but here we are and here I am doing it anyway*

We do enjoy immigrants and certainly celebrate certain elements of the immigrant narrative, but embracing them keeping their culture is fairly new and even than a bit of an exaggeration. Those who wanted to bring their old ways were forced to live in cloistered communities more often than not, thus we end up with ethnically divided areas, not ethnically diverse ones: little Italy, Chinatown, Little Odessa, Harlem, ect ect. There is more acceptance but that has been a modern trend, not a classical one.

Ahtman wrote:My great grandfather forbid my grandfather from learning Italian becuase bringing one's old culture with them was so popular. *rolls eyes and adds this bit in case the sarcasm wasn't obvious but then your all a pretty deft bunch so I don't need to spell it out for you but here we are and here I am doing it anyway*

We do enjoy immigrants and certainly celebrate certain elements of the immigrant narrative, but embracing them keeping their culture is fairly new and even than a bit of an exaggeration. Those who wanted to bring their old ways were forced to live in cloistered communities more often than not, thus we end up with ethnically divided areas, not ethnically diverse ones: little Italy, Chinatown, Little Odessa, Harlem, ect ect. There is more acceptance but that has been a modern trend, not a classical one.

That's a tough call. I know many immigrants lived in those communities by choice. Some of my relatives still live in little Italy because they like it there, other people like it because, well other nationalities that they hate don't come there. What national heritages have you really seen suppressed in the US? Unless you mean traditions that really clash with US society like keeping chickens in apartments and stuff like that.

Obviously there have been some exceptions, African Americans and American Indians aside have not been integrated well, you can make a case for Hispanics I guess, even Asians, but many of these groups don't really attempt to integrate either.

Waaagh_Gonads wrote:*Takes deep breath*

There is a good reason for so many germans.

During the 17th and 18th centuries the US was pulling about 8000 immigrants per year, almost exclusively from Britain and northern europe.

Then in the early 19th century the immigration numbers started spiking, the vast majority from german speaking areas (as there was no germany at the time).Germans were the number 1 immigrant group for almost 70 years, peaking at 1.2 million per year, until just before the civil war when the irish started flooding over to due to the potato famine.
Even then the germans were neck and naeck with the irish.

Most of the male germans emmigrating were farmers pushed off the land by famine and nobles enlarging their estates, but rather than flooding to the cities as happened in the UK they went to America (primarily the norh via NYC) and their peak emmigration corresponded with the opening up of the States around the great lakes and the mid west after the civil war (Which eplains why so many germans in those locations). So asfarmers, they went out and farmed. And had big families (No 40k to cause young men to sit at home painting models, or OT forums to discuss US immigration stats)

When the German Confederation was formed and then the Empire, numbers dropped. Also due to improving conditionsin Ireland they to dropped off.
The Italians then started pouring in primarily from the poorer south.
Lastly came the eastern European Jews right at the end of the 19th cetury and into the early 20th century.
WW1 led to aloot of central european refugees (including germans) so that caused a short sharp burst of those peoples.

There are a heap of scandinavians in the northern mid west and dakota as they had a big influx over about 20 years, corresponding with land release, that were advertised in scandinavia to get more farmers over.

Well said.

I am German - Dutch - Norwegian - English (in descending order of percentage). The reason why so many people identify as German/Irish/Scottish is because they were basically all white Europeans. Intermarriage must have been relatively common (despite the religious friction). Since Germans, Irish, and Italians tended to be the most numerous and the most likely to have the largest families, you'll find that most people identify themselves that way. For instance, in my own genealogy, my English ancestors were here first, but eventually were "bred out" of my line by my more recent (and more numerous) German ancestors.

I am German - Dutch - Norwegian - English (in descending order of percentage). The reason why so many people identify as German/Irish/Scottish is because they were basically all white Europeans. Intermarriage must have been relatively common (despite the religious friction). Since Germans, Irish, and Italians tended to be the most numerous and the most likely to have the largest families, you'll find that most people identify themselves that way. For instance, in my own genealogy, my English ancestors were here first, but eventually were "bred out" of my line by my more recent (and more numerous) German ancestors.

I know my grandfather who was Prussian pretended he was Irish and even made up a fake last name so that he could date my Irish grandmother. Apparently My great grandfather only wanted her to date Irish.

Interestingly, I've been told stories that many of my European (non-english speaking) ancestors very quickly and efficiently renounced their European heritages (even going so far as to forbid their children to speak the mother tongue). Apparently, they wanted to "Americanize" as quickly as possible. I have no opinion on the matter, and I certainly don't begrudge people who carry on their ancestral traditions, but I found it an interesting fact.

Why do you suppose some immigrants have done that while others have not?

Andrew1975 wrote:

Ahtman wrote:My great grandfather forbid my grandfather from learning Italian becuase bringing one's old culture with them was so popular. *rolls eyes and adds this bit in case the sarcasm wasn't obvious but then your all a pretty deft bunch so I don't need to spell it out for you but here we are and here I am doing it anyway*

We do enjoy immigrants and certainly celebrate certain elements of the immigrant narrative, but embracing them keeping their culture is fairly new and even than a bit of an exaggeration. Those who wanted to bring their old ways were forced to live in cloistered communities more often than not, thus we end up with ethnically divided areas, not ethnically diverse ones: little Italy, Chinatown, Little Odessa, Harlem, ect ect. There is more acceptance but that has been a modern trend, not a classical one.

That's a tough call. I know many immigrants lived in those communities by choice. Some of my relatives still live in little Italy because they like it there, other people like it because, well other nationalities that they hate don't come there. What national heritages have you really seen suppressed in the US? Unless you mean traditions that really clash with US society like keeping chickens in apartments and stuff like that.

Obviously there have been some exceptions, African Americans and American Indians aside have not been integrated well, you can make a case for Hispanics I guess, even Asians, but many of these groups don't really attempt to integrate either.

You are talking about now. It's easy to live in Little Italy now and seem pretty cool with it but it was formed becuase most Italians didn't have a choice. Part of the reason for the change is the pride that has asserted itself in the modern era where not only would do people recognize who they are but are proud of it: Black Pride, Irish festival, Jersey Shore. Really we have a love/hate relationship with even legal immigrants and have from the get go. For example, have you ever seen Gangs of New York? The WWI propaganda against, and the treatment of, Americans of German descent was less than progressive. I also disagree that African Americans haven't integrated well. There are still issues but there has been an amazing amount of progress in the area. The Native American issue is far more complex, not just becuase the idea that they need to integrate to a foreign occupier is insulting to many of them. They didn't immigrate here, we immigrated on top of them. There is of course that they also have a myriad of nations that each have a different relationship with the US government.

Ahtman wrote:

Andrew1975 wrote:

Ahtman wrote:My great grandfather forbid my grandfather from learning Italian becuase bringing one's old culture with them was so popular. *rolls eyes and adds this bit in case the sarcasm wasn't obvious but then your all a pretty deft bunch so I don't need to spell it out for you but here we are and here I am doing it anyway*

We do enjoy immigrants and certainly celebrate certain elements of the immigrant narrative, but embracing them keeping their culture is fairly new and even than a bit of an exaggeration. Those who wanted to bring their old ways were forced to live in cloistered communities more often than not, thus we end up with ethnically divided areas, not ethnically diverse ones: little Italy, Chinatown, Little Odessa, Harlem, ect ect. There is more acceptance but that has been a modern trend, not a classical one.

That's a tough call. I know many immigrants lived in those communities by choice. Some of my relatives still live in little Italy because they like it there, other people like it because, well other nationalities that they hate don't come there. What national heritages have you really seen suppressed in the US? Unless you mean traditions that really clash with US society like keeping chickens in apartments and stuff like that.

Obviously there have been some exceptions, African Americans and American Indians aside have not been integrated well, you can make a case for Hispanics I guess, even Asians, but many of these groups don't really attempt to integrate either.

You are talking about now. It's easy to live in Little Italy now and seem pretty cool with it but it was formed becuase most Italians didn't have a choice. Part of the reason for the change is the pride that has asserted itself in the modern era where not only would do people recognize who they are but are proud of it: Black Pride, Irish festival, Jersey Shore. Really we have a love/hate relationship with even legal immigrants and have from the get go. For example, have you ever seen Gangs of New York? The WWI propaganda against, and the treatment of, Americans of German descent was less than progressive. I also disagree that African Americans haven't integrated well. There are still issues but there has been an amazing amount of progress in the area. The Native American issue is far more complex, not just becuase the idea that they need to integrate to a foreign occupier is insulting to many of them. They didn't immigrate here, we immigrated on top of them. There is of course that they also have a myriad of nations that each have a different relationship with the US government.

While I agree with much of what you are saying. I still know for a fact back in the day many immigrants looked for settlements that contained their own people, not just because that's where they were forced to go. My relatives that settled in little Italy settled there for many reasons, one was because that's where all the Italian stone masons settled and that's what that part of the family did. The culture shock could just be too much for many immigrants, settling in a place that was more familiar to them was very attractive. I still think most of these enclaves formed out of a sense of commonality and ease, they came together as a choice, not as an oppressed mass. The fact of the matter is that many people brought their cultural xenophobia with them and were not only not ready for instant integration, they didn't want to integrate with some of the other nations immigrants.

Obviously there are exceptions where people were basically forced into these enclaves, Blacks in general (not just from Africa) and American Indians (Native Americans, which ever is PC today) are the main examples.

have you ever seen Gangs of New York?

I know what you are saying, but even you would crucify anyone that used this for evidence

I also disagree that African Americans haven't integrated well.

I'm gonna straight out argue with you there. They have not integrated well. I'm not going to get into a finger pointing debate about it. It's a very difficult and complex subject. I think if you look at African Americans as a whole their integration has been has not gone well for them or society as a whole. It was getting better for awhile, but then crack came along and many sociologists think that that plague set the community back 30 years.

I'll tell you once we used some basketball courts in little Itlay because the ones in my friends neighborhood were full. I didn't think it was too big of a deal. I mean it was 2006 and we were a bunch of guys in our 30s. Well a couple of my friends were black and had trepidations, which were confirmed after 5 minutes of play, when some of the residents showed up with baseball bats and used racial slurs I haven't heard since I was a child. We beat feet quickly.

Same thing happened sometimes when we came to their courts. We were not always welcomed by everyone.

I mentioned Gangs of New York, not as evidence specifically, but becuase some of the events portrayed were actual events and sentiments expressed were actual sentiments. The men getting off the boats were pressed into military service immediately and there were strong 'native' versus immigrant sentiment. It was fiction framed around real ideas and moments.

As for your anecdotal evidence that blacks haven't integrated I'm going to have to still disagree. Look at the state of race relations 60 years ago and look at them today and you will see a world of difference in almost every area, and for the better. As I also stated there is still work to be done but the wound is fairly large. Turf battles between young men in a highly stratified area with history of ethnic separation doesn't really represent the overall picture of race relations.

Ahtman wrote:I mentioned Gangs of New York, not as evidence specifically, but becuase some of the events portrayed were actual events and sentiments expressed were actual sentiments. The men getting off the boats were pressed into military service immediately and there were strong 'native' versus immigrant sentiment. It was fiction framed around real ideas and moments.

As for your anecdotal evidence that blacks haven't integrated I'm going to have to still disagree. Look at the state of race relations 60 years ago and look at them today and you will see a world of difference in almost every area, and for the better. As I also stated there is still work to be done but the wound is fairly large. Turf battles between young men in a highly stratified area with history of ethnic separation doesn't really represent the overall picture of race relations.

Well, I think things have gotten better in some ways and worse in others. When you see that there are more black men in prison than in college, there is a real big problem. 30 years ago Blacks were making great strides in social justice and were quickly closing the income gap. Then crack came. If you look at the stats, it's hard not to say that integration if not completely failing has been much harder by several magnitudes compared to any other group.

New york city is a very different place than America. I can tell you that in most China towns, Little Italys,... etc across America, people flocked there out of comfort.

Good posts by Waaagh_Gonads and Sgt_Scruffy.

There's an interesting article on wikipedia about this topic:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_American

Most interesting parts: "The Germans were the largest immigrant group to participate in the Civil War; over 176,000 U.S. soldiers were born in Germany."

And: German newspapers from / in America in 1922: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/ec/Bundesarchiv_Bild_137-005795%2C_Deutsche_Zeitungen_in_Nordamerika.jpg

Andrew1975 wrote:No just pointing out that a lot of ethnic food is really American and while I don't know if you could call it reinvention, it is certainly revolutionary in that the differences are quite striking.
Case in point.
Chinese food
Pizza
Hamburger
Nachos
Chimichanga
The list goes on.

The thing that's interesting to me is that we invent a food, then put it back in someone else's cuisine. Fortune cookies and egg rolls were invented in San Francisco, but 'everyone knows' they're from China. Oh and another example is Spaghetti - the noodle comes from Italy, but the 'spaghetti with meat sauce' that we associate with the word was a US invention.

BearersOfSalvation wrote:

Andrew1975 wrote:No just pointing out that a lot of ethnic food is really American and while I don't know if you could call it reinvention, it is certainly revolutionary in that the differences are quite striking.
Case in point.
Chinese food
Pizza
Hamburger
Nachos
Chimichanga
The list goes on.

The thing that's interesting to me is that we invent a food, then put it back in someone else's cuisine. Fortune cookies and egg rolls were invented in San Francisco, but 'everyone knows' they're from China. Oh and another example is Spaghetti - the noodle comes from Italy, but the 'spaghetti with meat sauce' that we associate with the word was a US invention.

Actually,IIRC...the noodle was brought to Italy from China.

Fun fact: Our frozen pizza brands are all based on Italian names, but in some parts of Europe (not sure if it's continent-wide), their frozen pizzas are named after American cities (Chicago blues, New York Pie, ect.)

There's probably still a lot of English "blood" floating around, it's just that few people would be more than a quarter english, or have english by the primary ethnicity.

Polonius wrote:There's probably still a lot of English "blood" floating around, it's just that few people would be more than a quarter english, or have english by the primary ethnicity.

Well yeah, you want to dilute that stuff as fast as you can. And as often as possible.

And to keep Brits out, all we have to do is show them an American beer, like a Sam Adams.

micahaphone wrote:And to keep Brits out, all we have to do is show them an American beer, like a Sam Adams.

Hey now...for an American beer Sam Adams (and it's many flavors) are actually pretty good.
Now of course if you were to hand a citizen of the UK a Budwieser they may indeed run..or point and laugh.

Pure English blood would be tough to have unless you emigrated from England recently with your spouse and had children over in America.

While the eastern shore was founded mostly by colonists from England(Jamestown and New England colonies) we had other areas that were colonized by different cultures. Germans tended to settle in the area that is now known as Wisconsin and Pennsylvania, hence the vast amount of breweries and in Wisconsin the celebration of certain Germanic religious holidays.

Florida started off as a spanish colony and Louisiana to Canada started as French colonies. Not to mention the slaves brought into the colonies from Africa.

After the Revolution we saw the Irish coming in drove and other immigrants during the Civil War. After the Civil War we saw an influx of Asian immigrants and the continued immigration from Europe. Then we gained Hawaii and the people from there.

Another source of blood lines comes from WW2. Where I live we had a German POW camp and it wasn't uncommon for the POWs to get work in the area. Some of them liked the area so much that they decided to stay after the war.

On a side note; I get my Warhammer supplies and models from a store that is built where the POW camp used to be.