Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I can't seem to find the reference for it right now that explains exactly how it works out AFTER smoke is popped in the Scout move.

If you have first turn;

1. Move and pop smoke in Scout move. Your first turn you are allowed to move and fire as normal while retaining the obscured rule for your opponents following shooting phase?

2. Move and pop smoke in Scout move. Your first turn you are allowed to move but may not fire while retaining obscured rule for your opponents following shooting phase?

Which is it and where is it located via FAQ or BRB?

BRB 62 basically, can't find a FAQ about that either. So yeah, 1 is correct.

I will check it out when I get home. This kind of opens up an interesting move I was thinking for a GK force I am building.

1. Use Grand Strat to give Scout to two units of Strike Squads in Rhinos.

2. Scout them full 12" move and pop smoke.

3. On first turn don't move, fire two psycannon shots from the rhino top hatch using the heavy profile.

4. Have obscured cover save during following turn of enemy shooting.

Seems it would be a really nice way to extend the range of those psycannons while getting your bread and butter Troop choices up the field.

Edge of 12" deployment zone + 12" Scout movement + 24" psycannon range = pretty much covering to the board edge.

From the brb FAQ
Q: Can any embarked troops shoot out of a vehicle on the
turn it has used its smoke launchers? (p66)
A: No.

Dok wrote:From the brb FAQ
Q: Can any embarked troops shoot out of a vehicle on the
turn it has used its smoke launchers? (p66)
A: No.

I wouldn't be using smoke during my turn, I would be using smoke on my Scout move. Then the game would start and I would fire out of my vehicle during my turn.

I am pretty sure popping smoke happens in the shooting phase.

cgage00 wrote:I am pretty sure popping smoke happens in the shooting phase.

Nope.

You pop smoke at the end of your Movement phase.

Right, but the Scout move happens before your movement phase.

Smoke happens 'once per game after completing its move... the vehicle may not fire any of its weapons in the same turn as it used its smoke launchers' P.62

So you scout move then pop smoke. the smoke lasts till your opponents shooting phase then goes away, and you are not allowed to fire any weapons while the smoke is in effect.

SoloFalcon1138 wrote:Right, but the Scout move happens before your movement phase.

Yup, but GW put out the FAQ that allows you to pop smoke during your Scout move.

Claiming an obscured save would still be considered "using the smoke launchers" I would say. Otherwise the vehicle would be able to shoot that turn as well. Thereby making Baal predators even more awesome than before.

DeathReaper wrote:Smoke happens 'once per game after completing its move... the vehicle may not fire any of its weapons in the same turn as it used its smoke launchers' P.62

So you scout move then pop smoke. the smoke lasts till your opponents shooting phase then goes away, and you are not allowed to fire any weapons while the smoke is in effect.

Did I pop smoke during my turn or did I pop smoke during the Scout move? You adding, "you are not allowed to fire any weapons while the smoke is in effect", is nowhere.

I pop smoke during my Scout move. I am not allowed to fire weapons due to popping smoke. The game starts, I choose not to move. I fire psycannons as heavy weapons. The following enemy turn he fires at me, I have the obscured status due to smoke popped in the Scout move. It is RAW and it is pretty much along the same line of lining your vehicles parallel to the deployment zone line, pivoting, then moving the full 12".

The scout move is your turn.

The BRB really does not cover popping smoke during the scout move, so we have to extrapolate on the rule.

It is clear that when you pop smoke you can not shoot, and the smoke clears after your opponents shooting phase.

so it is a bit ambiguous but while smoke is in effect you are not allowed to shoot.

It all depends on when the scout move happens.

Scout moves happen in your first turn (Out of sequence for the person that goes second) and they have rules allowing them to basically move out of sequence, in the first turn of the game.

Scout move is a Scout move. Nothing else.

I can move during the Scout move and then if it is my first turn when the game starts, I can NOT move and fire heavy weapons.

By your standard, I would not be able to fire heavy weapons in my turn after making a Scout move.

Dok wrote:Claiming an obscured save would still be considered "using the smoke launchers" I would say.

+1 They are still in use on your turn by giving you the save, therefore no shooting.

Brother Ramses wrote:Scout move is a Scout move. Nothing else.

I can move during the Scout move and then if it is my first turn when the game starts, I can NOT move and fire heavy weapons.

By your standard, I would not be able to fire heavy weapons in my turn after making a Scout move.

No, you would count as stationary because the scout move has its own phase. Even though it takes place during your turn, you are only disallowed shooting heavy weapons if you moved in your movement phase.

But as Dok wrote: "Claiming an obscured save would still be considered "using the smoke launchers" I would say"

When you scout move Is it your turn to use scout moves?

Have you used smoke during your turn?

Yes and yes. the clear intent is that when you pop smoke you can not shoot while the smoke is active.

Kinda off topic, but if there's a squad of two vehicles, if one pops smoke, can the other still shoot? Kinda a fun tactic (albeit a bit cheesy) if you could move, pop smoke on one for a cover save on both (half of the unit is in cover) and still shoot. Anyone know?

Yes, they can.

Very cool. Is there anywhere in the BRB that I can quote? I can see people calling me out on doing that.

I guess under smoke rules if it says the UNIT may not fire, then I can't. If not, woo!

Exactly, and the rules state "The vehicle may not fire."

Using smoke launchers gives you a cover save. Using a cover save is not using smoke launchers.

Answer this question,

In the turn after the Scout move, did I use smoke launchers?

Brother Ramses wrote:Using smoke launchers gives you a cover save. Using a cover save is not using smoke launchers.

Answer this question,

In the turn after the Scout move, did I use smoke launchers?

If you mean in turn 2, then no.


you used the smoke in game turn 1 on the scout moves portion of turn 1. (which due to scouts USR it happens first before the movement phase)

Brother Ramses wrote:Using smoke launchers gives you a cover save. Using a cover save is not using smoke launchers.

Answer this question,

In the turn after the Scout move, did I use smoke launchers?

You have a cover save after the scout move, therefore you ARE using smoke launchers, so yes you did.

kirsanth wrote:Exactly, and the rules state "The vehicle may not fire."

Excellent. This will be very fun.

DeathReaper wrote:

Brother Ramses wrote:Using smoke launchers gives you a cover save. Using a cover save is not using smoke launchers.

Answer this question,

In the turn after the Scout move, did I use smoke launchers?

If you mean in turn 2, then no.


you used the smoke in game turn 1 on the scout moves portion of turn 1. (which due to scouts USR it happens first before the movement phase)

How about I just crush your entire argument?

Page 76, Scouts:

"To represent this, after both sides have deployed (including infiltrators), BUT BEFORE THE FIRST PLAYER BEGINS HIS FIRST TURN, any scouts may make a normal move."

The Scout move is not part of game turn 1. Game turn 1 has no Scout move part. Scout move is done before the first player begins his first turn. Keyword before. If it is before the first player makes his first turn, then it isn't part of the first turn or part of turn 1 has you claim.

Now page 62, Smoke Launchers:

"The vehicle may not fire any of its weapons IN THE SAME TURN AS IT USED ITS SMOKE LAUNCHERS, BUT WILL COUNT AS OBSCURED IN THE NEXT ENEMY SHOOTING PHASE,......."

So if I fire of smoke launchers during the scout move, which I would do before I begin my first turn, when my first turn begins, and I have not fired off smoke launchers in that turn, then I can fire weapons.

It is clearly intended that if you get a smoke cover save you can not shoot with the vehicle or any embarked units, even though the rules are worded poorly (who would have guessed).

The smoke does not go away until after your opponents shooting phase, so you are still using smoke on your turn and have to abide by all of its rules.

Ok, so it isn't RAW as you first tried to argue it was by saying that the Scout move was part of the players first turn, it is just RAI that you were arguing.

Poor writing aside, let me ask you this then, based on your RAI:

I move a Strike Squad in the Scout move and pop smoke.

My first turn, I move 12".

My opponents turn, I get the obscured cover save when he fires on my Rhinos because that is how long the smoke "lasted".

But wait, what if I don't have the first turn?

I Scout move and pop smoke.

My opponent has first turn and fires on my Rhinos and they are obscured.

Now it is my turn, guess I can't fire because by your standard of RAI the smoke is still around right?

The first instance the smoke lasted till player turn 2 of game turn 1 so it has to last till player turn 2 of game turn 1 in the second instance right?

The deal is that smoke lasts until the next enemy Shooting phase, whenever that happens to be. The deal is that you can't fires any weapons on the turn smoke launchers are used, not until the nest enemy shooting phase. Just because you don't shoot during the Scout move when you can use smoke launchers does not magically extend the restriction on firing an additional turn.

It's a hole. The INAT patches it, but GW hasn't yet.

I don't expect that an opponent would be cool with it, and I wouldn't try it.

Brother Ramses wrote:Ok, so it isn't RAW as you first tried to argue it was by saying that the Scout move was part of the players first turn, it is just RAI that you were arguing.

Poor writing aside, let me ask you this then, based on your RAI:

I move a Strike Squad in the Scout move and pop smoke.

My first turn, I move 12".

My opponents turn, I get the obscured cover save when he fires on my Rhinos because that is how long the smoke "lasted".

But wait, what if I don't have the first turn?

I Scout move and pop smoke.

My opponent has first turn and fires on my Rhinos and they are obscured.

Now it is my turn, guess I can't fire because by your standard of RAI the smoke is still around right?

The first instance the smoke lasted till player turn 2 of game turn 1 so it has to last till player turn 2 of game turn 1 in the second instance right?

The deal is that smoke lasts until the next enemy Shooting phase, whenever that happens to be. The deal is that you can't fires any weapons on the turn smoke launchers are used, not until the nest enemy shooting phase. Just because you don't shoot during the Scout move when you can use smoke launchers does not magically extend the restriction on firing an additional turn.

As Mann said "I don't expect that an opponent would be cool with it, and I wouldn't try it."

And to answer your question, no It lasts till your opponents player turn 1 of game turn one. that is all it will ever last. However it is clear that RAI if you have smoke cover save you do not get to shoot. Your 2nd example makes no sense since the enemy shooting phase has passed and the smoke is gone. Yes the RAW for smoke is not written clearly and needs to be fixed.

Brother Ramses is correct in that this, by RAW, is entirely legal. And to be frank it's been a while since I saw as much moving of goalposts as in this thread.