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Pretty streight forward. You know the type. 7th edition daemons or dark elves type total OP cheeze that is pretty much unbeatable?

And if not an army, maybe a particular list that is too easy to win with if you know what you are doing?

Thanks

Don't ask why, you don't want to know

Oh your gonna be cheezy so not many people are going to go with that jeez ill let you know chaos and vampire counts have a pretty nasty units.

hehe its more like some people in my club use cheeze, but i dont want to just copy them to beat them so I would rather find a different type of cheeze to "troll the troll."

mostly problematic are Plague Monks + slave tarpit spam + monsters and the guarenteed 4+ Ward and MoT Chozen unit that kills everything but is completely invincible

Chosen are great.

A few hpa and a few doom wheels kills.

High elves can be cheesy.

Grave guard with a bunch of fancyness.

Those are what comes to mind

High Elves are pretty good, I hear good things about Skaven.

There's not really a WIN army or list out there right now, and honestly rather than asking for a cheese list why not ask for some advice on your current list? For all you know, your current list might need only minor tweaks.

What exactly are your opponents using?

zeekill wrote:hehe its more like some people in my club use cheeze, but i dont want to just copy them to beat them so I would rather find a different type of cheeze to "troll the troll."

mostly problematic are Plague Monks + slave tarpit spam + monsters and the guarenteed 4+ Ward and MoT Chozen unit that kills everything but is completely invincible

That's not cheese. Those are pretty much just straight units in the game. Some people say Chosen deathstars are cheese, but there's pretty easy and common ways around any build. The kind of definition of cheese I think is stacking a bunch of abilities or finding loopholes the developers didn't notice and exploiting them to the utmost. But if you're trying to do that, at least in 8th, I haven't personally seen anything that didn't have at least one relatively common hard counter that turns it to absolute garbage.

But, you know, the game has strategies. And some stuff is going to be better when used together. If you lose to it, it's cheese. If you use it, you're playing smart. I mean, yeah, we could force everyone to pick their absolute worst units and meet in the center of the map and have a slow slap fight. Or maybe try and learn the game better--preferrably without the bitter edge.

High elves using teclis w/ lore of life. And banner for extra magic dice add in a large phoenix guard unit and white lions its a tough list to beat

None really....which is a great improvement over 7th....

8th has anti deathstar spells, which 1 source of complaint since players find that deathstars can be neutralized easier in 8th ed.

Even Teclis is vulnerable to this, although he is a pain in the A**....in many tourneys anyway no SC are allowed....although I personally think 8th books starting with O&G should be allowed their SC's..

DE and DoC have some rock solid armies - i.e. variety of strong troops working in unison to shred things - but as for cheese builds I think the avoidance life slann f***fest is hard to beat. Looks something like this:

Bloated Solo Slann - BSB, life loremaster, free power dice, ethereal, becalming, cupped balls, etc.

Scarvet - stubborn hat, rocking save

20+ Saurus - cmd, shields
3x 7+ Camo Skinks
2-3x 3-4 Terradons
2x 2 Salamanders

+ as many skink skirmishers as you can pack in

There might be a stegadon in there too (somebody to lifebloom), but maybe not. Idea is to never see combat with anything that matters, redirecting and washing the enemy in poison, fire and dwellers. If combat happens, it happens with the saurus on their terms, often at T8 and regen-ing. This is also probably the least fun list to play against (and I have ), for obvious reasons.

- Salvage

Yup. Fought the Slann Life Spam before and no, it isn't fun at all. Pretty much anything with Life sucks anyways lol.
Of course my Beastmen were also called cheese a while ago.....

Yea, the Life Slann build is pound for pound the toughest match up for my Skaven army (which is my most competitive list). However, when I say toughest, its still pretty beatable. My skaven army is equipped with Cracks Call which neutralizes alot of Lmen threats and ringing the bell instantly takes care of T8 Saurus. I loved the look in my opponents face when he had to pick up his Life Slann unit when I rolled the result that all T7 or higher models on the battlefield take D3 wounds. Also, The Dreaded Thirteenth Spell cures alot of my ills!

To stay on track, Teclis with BoTWD and Pheonix Guard are pretty solid.


My two coppers...

Lore of Light slanns are pretty nasty too...

Saurus Warriors are already nasty.... 3 attack WS10 I10 saurus warriors are even worse.

Some of these "cheese" builds have gaping holes, they just aren't exploited much because the counters require builds that aren't cheese.

Dwarfs and Daemons can shut down those Slann builds easy and/or kill him right quick.

How do dwarfs kill the slann "easy"

..by getting stuck in their throats...

Lots of anti-magic, I suppose. Cannons, super-throwers, and Rangers would all help engage the threat fast.

I think a big unit of Stubborn Tzeentch Chosen with a 3+ Ward and halberds is pretty devastating. There are ways to cut the unit down, but none of them beyond the Curse of the Horned Rat are very good at it, especially after some War Shrine augments.
The Chosenstar doesn't need to kill your army; it just needs to kill a little more of it than you can take out of its allies.

DukeRustfield wrote:

zeekill wrote:hehe its more like some people in my club use cheeze, but i dont want to just copy them to beat them so I would rather find a different type of cheeze to "troll the troll."

mostly problematic are Plague Monks + slave tarpit spam + monsters and the guarenteed 4+ Ward and MoT Chozen unit that kills everything but is completely invincible

That's not cheese. Those are pretty much just straight units in the game. Some people say Chosen deathstars are cheese, but there's pretty easy and common ways around any build. The kind of definition of cheese I think is stacking a bunch of abilities or finding loopholes the developers didn't notice and exploiting them to the utmost. But if you're trying to do that, at least in 8th, I haven't personally seen anything that didn't have at least one relatively common hard counter that turns it to absolute garbage.

But, you know, the game has strategies. And some stuff is going to be better when used together. If you lose to it, it's cheese. If you use it, you're playing smart. I mean, yeah, we could force everyone to pick their absolute worst units and meet in the center of the map and have a slow slap fight. Or maybe try and learn the game better--preferrably without the bitter edge.

I think that by your defenition:

"finding loopholes the developers didn't notice and exploiting them to the utmost"

perfectly describes the 4+ Ward Chosen.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

Warpsolution wrote:Lots of anti-magic, I suppose. Cannons, super-throwers, and Rangers would all help engage the threat fast.

I think a big unit of Stubborn Tzeentch Chosen with a 3+ Ward and halberds is pretty devastating. There are ways to cut the unit down, but none of them beyond the Curse of the Horned Rat are very good at it, especially after some War Shrine augments.
The Chosenstar doesn't need to kill your army; it just needs to kill a little more of it than you can take out of its allies.

my point exactly. WHEN he rolls that result (not IF he does) he reforms into 1 rank and just marches forward with nothing being able to stop him beyond what you said, the Dreaded 13th

What about Dwellers below?

Or the Lore of Metal spell?

They are typicall str 4 or sometimes 5, so cool you kill a few...

The unit is just SO many point and so hard to reduce to zero models its not even worth going after...

and yeah, I have to toss my hat in the ring of "continually rerolling until you get the 4+ is pretty lame". IMO you should not be able to subtract/add from a result to force a rerolll.

I understand their strength is high, however, you couple Dwellers with the - to strength spell and presto, dead unit.

I mentioned on a different thread that's how I one shotted Archeon and half of his chaos knights on turn 1.

DarkAngelHopeful wrote:I understand their strength is high, however, you couple Dwellers with the - to strength spell and presto, dead unit.

I mentioned on a different thread that's how I one shotted Archeon and half of his chaos knights on turn 1.

yup you could SUCCESSFULLY land two spells from different lores assuming you managed to get both of them....

Thats a lot of things that need to go right for you...

First have to actually roll both the spells

Then you need to actually manage to cast both of them without one or the other getting dispelled/scrolled.

Best way I have found to beat it, is to just ignore it and pray it never gets into combat and scrape up points from all the other units they have.

Here's how I do it.

You can take Teclis, lore of Shadow or Life. Then he has all of the spells for one of the Lores. Problem one solved.

Then, you take a level 4 Archmage with the silver wand (+1 spell) or a lvl 1-2 with the seer staff (choose your spells).

In all 3 of my AB games, I got both spells I needed to cast.

Then in game. Teclis with IF is a no brainer to get one of them off. Problem solved.

Then, you throw 6 dice at the other spell with the other mage. 25% chance to get IF (not the best, but not bad). Turn one. He uses dispel scroll. Okay, threat gone.

Turn two. rinse and repeat. Turn three. rinse and repeat. etc.

You make it sound like it's impossible, but it's not.


Edit:

Or, you could just take the Lore of Metal with Teclis and cast the tuns to gold spell or even the reverse armor save spell. or even an Archmage with the book of hoeth would work.

Well when you are running Teclis and another level 4 things change a tad... Countering cheese with cheese.

They will get a 2+ ward against the lore of metal spells, well all of them except transformation...

Also thats a ton of points spent (like 700) just to counter that one unit.

Name another army that can consistently do what you posted,while remaining competitive and ill agree its a decent way to deal with the chosen star, bonus points if you dont use special characters.

I don't intend to name another unit. I admit I'm looking at it through the lense of the High Elves, more specifically, how I play my tournament High Elves.

However, what I said isn't just to counter that unit, I use that combo effectivly against any army I play against. So, it's not just designed to kill the chosenstar.

Also, you and I have a very different opinion on what's cheese. I've seen it through the posts we both post this last year.

Edit:

It's 745 pts to be exact. I don't think it's too many points for what I use those two mages for in the way I play my tournament army. I use their various spells in many different synergistic ways.

Meh there are very few things I consider cheesy, normally what I consider cheesy equates to "not fun to play against".

That is Gunlines (name me one person who likes to play against 7+ war machines), The Chosen Star, Teclis/Book of Hoeth (im going to cast and there isnt a damn thing you can do about it), double Hell pit/power scroll grey seer, and lizardmen point denial.

These are generally things people (not just me) do not like to see hit the table in front of them, and will more often then not pass on the game if its a for fun game.

Curious, then, DarkAngelHopeful: what, exactly, is cheese?

Warpsolution wrote:Curious, then, DarkAngelHopeful: what, exactly, is cheese?

It doesn't matter what I think is cheese or not, but there is a counter for everything in 8th ed. I think it was very well written.

Cheese is generally things that that are a) Percieved as not fun, such as gunlines which are seen as static or armies stronger then their own or/and b) perieved as unfluffy, armies being in configerations that would not be considered the norm for that army. Such as spamming a huge amount of X unit in a unfluffy manner, running a special charcter. e.c.t

That generally covers the use of cheesy. Personally, none of these bother me at all, as I have played other games competatively before and I am generally relaxed on what can and cannot be used.

Um...there is a counter for everything. Yes. That's how this game has survived. That's how games survive.

But what you think is or is not cheese is, in fact, important to my question "what do you think is cheese?". If you don't want to answer, so be it, but if the answer is "nothing", I'll have to disagree. Terms must have meaning. This one is still in use. It may have changed, but it still exists. So there's got to be something that it applies to.

I don't let that definition of cheese bother me. I just try to think of ways around it. As I said before, there is a counter for everything in 8th ed, you just have to look for it.

I also don't build my armies based on fluff. I play to win and I bulid lists that are competative, but I'm not a "WAAC" player as I have seen it defined on here.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with making a list that is competative/hard and playing to win. I take issue with playing people with bad attitudes or people who get so upset they can't control themselves (i.e. throw dice, cuss, etc) or who are just buttholes.

But I don't have any issue playing against someone who tooled their list to be optimized and who plays hard.