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Well this past weekend I played in a 1000 pt. tournament at my LGS and brought what some might think a very strange list:

Alpha Warrior-BS/Lash, Deathspitter
Venomthrope (1)
Homagaunts (13)
Genestealers (8 or 10 don't remeber... doesn't matter)
and
!!Carnifex Brood (3)-TL Devourers w/Brainleach!!

So anyways first game I was up against a GK player. Nothing flashy or super special, yet I almost won as it came down to a final dice roll. Again not the point of the post but props to me.

So he was saying how "awesome" it would be if his Terminators could get into combat with my Carnfexes w/Alpha attached. I told him, "it won't be pretty." But I obliged as I wanted to see it as well.

So Turn 4 he deploys his GK out of his Stormraven and charges into the full squad. So after he gets pulled to I1 because of lash and having all the Alpha Warrior's attacks be saved by a plethora of 5s and 6s, I was thinking I hope I last. I let him make his attacks first as we are going simultaneous.

He directs the attacks at the carnifexes and the SOB managed 2 wounds. He passes the Psych test (you know what? SitW really blows...) and says 2 of my carnifexes are dead. I remove two of them and then I make their attacks and he removes the rest of the Termies from the board.

So after the game I was talking with a fellow Tyranid player who is a real rules lawyer and we discuss this and he thinks we can foil this Force Weapon nonsense using the following:

Using the following example above, two wounds are inflicted and 1 wound is allocated to two carnifexen. Since the carnifexen are equipped the same-two wounds are put on one carnifex (as if being hit by power weapons... which they are) since these wounds now cause instant death, this means that one who has been wounded is now dead and I still have two Carnifex standing?

Any comments?

If your opponents start bitching, tell em to suck it up. If they gave up invulnerable saves, or their IC's forgot how to ride drop pods and had a FAQ reduce their psychic defense to an inside joke, they would find loopholes too.

Nope, with instant death you remove whole models when possible. He got Lucky beating shadows of the warp.

Why not have a monster standing by that makes them take a test on 3D6?

He did the prime. They just got lucky.

Cowboykenny wrote:
Using the following example above, two wounds are inflicted and 1 wound is allocated to two carnifexen. Since the carnifexen are equipped the same-two wounds are put on one carnifex (as if being hit by power weapons... which they are) since these wounds now cause instant death, this means that one who has been wounded is now dead and I still have two Carnifex standing?

Any comments?

This is exactly how it works. Force Weapons can't be activated until after allocation and after the models suffer unsaved wounds.

IE in a brood of 3 carnifexes he would have to cause 5 unsaved wounds in order to kill two carnifexes by activating the force weapons.

Nungunz wrote:

Cowboykenny wrote:
Using the following example above, two wounds are inflicted and 1 wound is allocated to two carnifexen. Since the carnifexen are equipped the same-two wounds are put on one carnifex (as if being hit by power weapons... which they are) since these wounds now cause instant death, this means that one who has been wounded is now dead and I still have two Carnifex standing?

Any comments?

This is exactly how it works. Force Weapons can't be activated until after allocation and after the models suffer unsaved wounds.

IE in a brood of 3 carnifexes he would have to cause 5 unsaved wounds in order to kill two carnifexes by activating the force weapons.

Nope, that's because the carnifexes are identical. From page 26 of the 40k manual you can see that since they are identical the saves are taken all together on the whole unit and allocated after that, trying to remove whole models. But since you activate the force weapons before actually removing the models, the wounds ARE inflicting instant death and thus are spread 1 per model before "wrapping"

[Edit: notice that this is one of the very few cases in which it matters since most multiwound models (with few notable exceptions) are either single models or ICs and thus counting as a single unit in close combat]

GeckoOBac wrote:
Nope, that's because the carnifexes are identical. From page 26 of the 40k manual you can see that since they are identical the saves are taken all together on the whole unit and allocated after that, trying to remove whole models. But since you activate the force weapons before actually removing the models, the wounds ARE inflicting instant death and thus are spread 1 per model before "wrapping"

Wrong.

The steps are as follows:

1) Roll to Hit
2) Roll to wound
3) Defender allocates wounds.
4) No saves are made as the wounds are from power weapons. Since the carnifexes are all equipped identically, the two wounds go on 1 model (page 26)
5) Now the test to activate the force weapon is made (Page 50). Since there is only one carnifex that suffered unsaved wounds, only one carnifex is instant-deathed if the psychic test passes.
6) One carnifex is removed as a casualty

The order in which stuff occurs is very important. Normally you would be right.....but the Psychic test isn't take until after saves are made.

Wrong.

The ACTUAL steps are:

1) and 2) the same
3) Defender allocates wounding hits
4) Defender GROUPS wounding hits into like model groups. So, in this case, there are 3 models and 2 wounding hits
5) Defender makes saves
6) Defender FAILS save -> NFW rule kicks in, passes test, ALL unsaved wounds now cause ID
7) ID rules tell you to remove an unwounded multiwound model from within your group for each ID causing wound
8) 2 carnifex are removed

What you are not doing is the 4th step, which is once you assign wounding hits, you then group them.

Additionally - the player should have had a banner anyway. Autopassing the Ld test is gravy. Oh, and should have had Halberds - as per the Nid FAQ they wqould go at I3.

Here's what I saw in my rulebook, word for word.

"The psyker may then make a psychic test to use that weapon's power against any one opponent that suffered an unsaved wound by the weapon in that player turn.The normal rules for using psychic powers apply... If the test is passed, the enemy suffers instant death regardless of toughness value."

I'd rule that only one Carnifex is removed.

Pen2Sword - except NFW have an entirely DIFFERENT rule when wielded by a GK Squad

ALL of the wounds, for that assault phase, become ID causing wounds. ALL of them

Ooooohhhh, they get their own special brand of force weapons! I thought the only extra magic trick they got was the Daemonbane or whatever. My mistake.

This post really needs to be in YMDC

Weighing in, read pg. 26, after the rules stuff.

"This rule is designed to stop players avoiding single wounds by putting them on a model that has suffered instant death anyway"

The author actually felt it necessary to explain the intent of the rule.

So, ask yourself...
Am I avoiding wounds by putting extra wounds on a model that is going to die anyway?

Regardless, nosferatu1001 is right.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Pen2Sword - except NFW have an entirely DIFFERENT rule when wielded by a GK Squad

ALL of the wounds, for that assault phase, become ID causing wounds. ALL of them

Here is a direct quote from the GK codex on page 54.

"If a unit is striking at different initiative orders, take the Psychic test to 'activate' the force weapons immediately after the first unsaved wounds are caused. All further wounds cause by this unit's Nemesis force weapons that phase will be bound by the result of the Psychic test."

You still need to cause unsaved wounds before activating the force weapons. The trick to get more kills is to have one halbred in the unit so you can activate at I6 so all of the ones after are already affected by the power. That's the only way to avoid having to avoid the wound stacking before activating the the power.

Nungunz - except there IS no wound stacking. Seriously - reread the complex unit rules, and note that you GROUP wounding hits (using this term to differentiate from wounds, etc) into groups of identical models. There is NO wound stacking possible, as there is now a pool of wounding hits amongst the 3 carnifexes.

The first unsaved wound is taken by the group of 3 carnifexes, you pass the power -> that wound, AND the other one, causes ID

This is where things do not happen simultaneously but in order, as the ID rules tell you it happens this way.

Page 26 of the main rulebook under "Units of Multiple-Wound Models":

"Once you have determinded the number of unsaves wounds suffered by a group of identical multiple-wound models (2 in the OP's example), you must remove whole models or casualties where possible (of which there are none as only 2 unsaved wounds were caused so 2 of them go on one of the carnifexes)."


Now we continue on to:

"If amongst the unsaved wounds there are some that cause instant death, the player must first, if possible, remove one unwounded model for each unsaved wound that causes instant death (of which there are zero because the Psychic power can't legally activate yet)"


And finally to page 50:

"Roll to hit and wound normally, allowing any invulnerable saves (IE after allocation of wounds) the victim might have. The Psyker may then take a Psychic test......."

From that point on, every wound inflicts instant death. At this point only a single carnifex has taken unsaved wounds so only one dies. If there were any more GKs at later initiative steps, then yes, one carnifex would die for each unsaved wound cause (as stated on Page 54 of the GK codex).


This follows every step word-for-word. By RAW in the OP's post, only a single carnifex would die.

beating 3 fex's in CC sounds cheesey as hell rofl. Tough luck :(

If amongst the unsaved wounds -> you have an unsaved wound, Psychic Power kicks in (and YES it can kick in, there has been 1 unsaved wound) -> there are some that cause instant death...

Your mistake is in not inserting the psychic power at the correct time

The INSTANT there is an unsaved wound (you go to save the first PW wound, realised you cant - no simultaneity allowed. Remember fast dice rolling is ONLY allowed if it doesnt alter the result. it does here) you make your psychic check - if passed ALL wounds, including this first unsaved one, cause ID

RAW 2 carnifex die. You are simply wrong on this, as you are not correctly timing things.

Nos has it. Much as I'd prefer otherwise, for the Carnis.

excepting 1 thing nunginz: you do not allocate wounds to Units of identical multi-wound models.

The group as a whole takes 2 wounds, the first wound is unsaved(carnis have no Invul), the GK player activates his NFW; both wounds are now ID, so 2 Carnies die.

A similar thing happens with a regular force weapon: 2 wounds go to the group, 2 unsaved wounds are caused, the Libby activates his Force weapon, 1 Carni is gone, 1 other carni takes a wound.

Complex units/Complex Mutliwound units never enters into the equation.

BRB page 26: "If a unit consists entirely of models that are identical in gaming terms and have multiple wounds, then take all the saves for the unit in one go."

Activating Force weapons(nemesis or otherwise) acts as an interrupt Between that paragraph and the second one below it.

it is a Simple Cause wound, take(or auto-fail) save, Force weapons are activated, kill whole models

Well I am beginning to feel that the tyranids are rasputin yet again by these new piano rules. Way to go GW. Way to go. Just waiting for a new FAQ that says tyranids can't take armor saves because they don't where armor....

- Edited by the moderatzi. Please do not attempt to circumvent the swear filter. -

The bigger deal, I think, is stupid Warp Quake. I know someone who's been running Reserve-based bugs, including some in pods, and was really looking forward to not having to deal with Mystics anymore. But Warp Quake is worse, in some ways.

Although, unless I'm mistaken Mann, units that arrive with the Spore are safe, assuming the Spore does not land in the Warp Quake zone.

Sure, but part of what a Spod is supposed to do is allow you to land safely near enemy units. And with Warp Quake not only do you have to place 12" back instead of right next to them, but if you scatter close you mishap. That's brutal.

Sigh.

And I was excited at first that nids were getting a new codex. Then it came out. Guess I'll wait till 6th edition.

nosferatu1001 wrote:If amongst the unsaved wounds -> you have an unsaved wound, Psychic Power kicks in (and YES it can kick in, there has been 1 unsaved wound) -> there are some that cause instant death...

Your mistake is in not inserting the psychic power at the correct time

The INSTANT there is an unsaved wound (you go to save the first PW wound, realised you cant - no simultaneity allowed. Remember fast dice rolling is ONLY allowed if it doesnt alter the result. it does here) you make your psychic check - if passed ALL wounds, including this first unsaved one, cause ID

RAW 2 carnifex die. You are simply wrong on this, as you are not correctly timing things.

No... Since both wounds are struck by 1 model, or 2 models striking at the same initiative value, they are applied simultaniously. You DONT apply 1, take the test and then apply the other, and take the test unless seperate initiative values are involved Page 39 wiht regards to allocating wounds through initiative order. RAW you would need to inflict 5 ID wounds at the same initiative value, or 2 wounds at seperate Initiatives to kill 2 carnifexes...

Wrong, wound allocation has no bearing on what model is suffering unsaved wounds or removing casualties whatsoever.

This exact issue has been explained in this thread (even using tyranids):

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/357693.page

Nos has it right on this one. Unsaved wounds are caused before wounds are assigned to models in the Remove Casualties step. Also NFW are just better than Force Weapons making Nid's sad pandas.

Carnifexen.

Like oxen.

Carnifexen.

gameandwatch - no, wrong. This is not about "applying" wounds, but TAKING SAVES within the group of identical models.


You do not move to "Remove Casualties" until you have rolled all saves within the wound group. Once you have an unsaved wound BEFORE you can allocate this to a model the NFW rules kick in, and if succesful this becomes an ID wound

You are simply not understanding the way wound allocation, wound grouping, taking saves and THEN remove casualties interacts with the NFW rules.

I think the real problem is that Grey Knights are over powered, but I'd say two carniflexen are dead. I wish I could have been the first to say carniflexen.