Men of iron and Men of stone, who were they?

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**necroplayer**

I can't really find much on these guys, all I can find is a few things about them going into space(to expand the early Imperium?). Does anyone happen to know anything about them??

**Kanluwen**

They weren't men.

They were artificial constructs. Read: 'robots'.

**Medium of Death**

So the Men of Stone were robots too?

I always imagined the Men of Stone were the ones that laid the foundations of Humanity's galactic expansion.

**Kanluwen**

The descriptions I've seen of them was that they're robots.

The "of Stone/Iron/Silver/Gold/Whatever Material" descriptor seems to be used to describe the kind of quality/roles they would play.

**Hlaine Larkin mk2**

Gaunt found the Iron Men and the STC but blew it up as it had been corrupted by chaos and knew if he didn't Macroth would die by their hands

**Kommissar Kel**

The Men of Stone were the first series of Robots. Not much is known of them at all.

The Men of Iron were the latter series and were the standing Army prior to the age of strife, fully subservient. Then something happened and the men of iron rebelled; they were defeated and now AI is considered an abomination by the Ad-Mech.

Basically it is GWs giant blatant rip-off of the Butlerian jihad by Frank Herbert(Dune). Robots are now outlawed and we have cyberneticly augmented human super computers to do the computers work for us(read: Dune mentats), or Cyborg lobotomized slaves for heavy lifting and etc(No Dune analog, thankfully).

**Kanluwen**

Kommissar Kel wrote:
Basically it is GWs giant blatant rip-off of the Butlerian jihad by Frank Herbert(Dune). Robots are now outlawed and we have cyberneticly augmented human super computers to do the computers work for us(read: Dune mentats), or Cyborg lobotomized slaves for heavy lifting and etc(No Dune analog, thankfully).

Considering no specifics of the Butlerian Jihad had been actually detailed when the 'Iron Men' had been introduced, it's kind of hard for it to be a ripoff.

The only details I remember of the Butlerian Jihad from Frank Herbert's books were that it happened and that it was bad.

**Carlovonsexron**

They made a series about it recently. Of the recent dune books they arent horrible, but not stellar either.

**Kanluwen**

Which is why I said "when the Iron Men had been introduced".

Brian Herbert's books detailing the Butlerian Jihad are much, much more recent.

**KamikazeCanuck**

Men of Stone were robots too? Maybe they weren't sentient and Iron Men were?

**Grey Templar**

actually, Men of Stone refers to normal humans IIRC.

the story goes that the men of stone built the men of iron to do work for them.

the Men of Iron rebelled and so the War of the Ironmen began.

it almost led to the extinction of mankind, but the Iron men were eventually destroyed

**KamikazeCanuck**

Aren't their Gold Guys too? Who are they?

**Grey Templar**

possably an Alien race.

or a human faction that was focused on trade.

**KamikazeCanuck**

Or some genetically engineered superhumans maybe?

**Ascalam**

Or Necrons, perhaps ...

*ducks the inevitable dumping on*

Just sayin'

**KamikazeCanuck**

Or Psykers.

**Psienesis**

KamikazeCanuck wrote:Aren't their Gold Guys too? Who are they?

Protocol Automatons, specializing in Human-Cyborg Relations.

**sphynx**

Psienesis wrote:
KamikazeCanuck wrote:Aren't their Gold Guys too? Who are they?

Protocol Automatons, specializing in Human-Cyborg Relations.

Threepio!

**Grey Templar**

sphynx wrote:
Psienesis wrote:
KamikazeCanuck wrote:Aren't their Gold Guys too? Who are they?

Protocol Automatons, specializing in Human-Cyborg Relations.

Threepio!

CREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEED

**terminator44**

In Rogue Trader (the 1st edition of 40K, not the FFG RPG) there were rules for robots. The rules applied to combat robots, but it mentioned there were other models that did manual labor. Of course, no mention was made of the Iron Men so it's likely that the even was retconned in and the robots retroactively became servitors.

**Ashryu**

I'm on board with the men of stone being humans

**Ascalam**

Just read that story in the 3rd edition rulebook. I believe it says that the author was executed for heresy

I'd say Stone people- Earth
Iron People - Mars

the rest *shrug*

**Uhlan**

In my mind...

Stone occurs 'naturally' and is indicative of something older and from the earth. Stone therefore comes first, the men of stone making the 'stronger' men of iron who are superior, but artificial, 'forged' in other words.

The men of stone, the humans, are brittle and weaker than the men of iron who, very probably, were combat oriented and 'superior' in many ways, but ultimately not as long lasting as the men of stone, the 'bedrock' (sorry) of the human race.

I wonder if the 'Silver' men were men with mechanical augmentations and cyborgs.

Perhaps the gold men were men of the 'golden age' of technology or, perhaps as some suggest, psykers (nimbus of power?). Maybe even genetically enhanced superior true humans without the need for mechanical enhancements.

Just some thoughts.

**Pilau Rice**

Ok lets have a look to see what I can dig up on the Men of Stone and Iron.

3rd ed Rule book: The Journal of Keeper Cripias
And so it was that in the First Age of Man, the Golden Age, there is the Emperor Unseen and unheralded he prepares the Old Earth for the coming of Mankind and he watches and he waits. He is joined by the First Men of the Golden Race, fine of limb and strong of mind In time, the Second Men of the Stone Race appear, and in their wake come many miracles and marvels of technology that strengthen to Sone Men’s power, but are also harnessed by those of the Golden Race. Although physically inferior to the Golden Race, and not of philosophical temperament and disposition, the Stone Men have in them the conjurations of great artifices and mechanisms. In time, the Golden Race looks to the stars to expand their dominion. The Stone Race builds great machines of power that send both Men of Stone and Men of Gold into the Ether. However, once the burgeoning race of Mankind has taken its first steps into the greater cosmos, the Golden Race dwindles in influence through their dependence on the artifices of the Stone Race. This the Golden Age comes to an end and the Stone Men prevail.

We have surmised that during the Dark Age of Technology, the Men of Ston create the Iron Men to help them in the building of their Great Empire. At first, the Iron Men are as servants, willing to do the bidding of their masters with no thoughts.

The end of the Dark Age of Technology is the most obscure region in mankind’s evolutionary tale. For whatever reasons and differences in ideology, the Stone Men and the Iron Men fell to warring with each other. The Iron Men are possessed of no Soul, an anathema to any true Man. The Stone Men in their final acts of self-preservation, annihilate the Iron Men who have turned from ally to foe, and even those of the Iron Race who retain their former loyalties ot theor one-time masters are destroyed in the fiery crucible of battle. Still the Emperor, in his eternal wisdom, awaits the moment to reveal the true path to Mankind’s destiny. Thus the start of the Age of Strife is heralded.

**Hawkward**

Judging from that, the Men of Stone would be cyborgs of some kind, as they're clearly distinct from the Men of Iron but also standing apart from the Golden Race of Man.

I wouldn't be surprised if the Men of Stone were somehow related to the Martian Empire, or progenitors of the Adeptus Mechanicus. It would certainly explain why the Men of Iron went rogue, if their source was on Mars where a C'tan lived.

**notprop**

There were robots in RT, I can remember the cool picture tht accompanied the section but not the fluff or rules (at work at the mo). I think that there were special rules that randomised their use on the battlefield.

However further to this there were rules for Imperial War robots in WD (100?), they were not artificial intelligences. Rather were mechanical bodies with simple organic cortecies, so more like servitors really ergo the program rules that they had. So in-lined with current Admech fluff/POV.

Quite interesting really but a little too clunky for large games. You in effect made a flow chart for them pre-game and followed it though the game, i.e. Is there an enemy within x inches - no - move towards closest enemy etc.

I seem to remember that you paid more points for more complex programs, but cheaper more simple programs could have the result of the war robot standing there until a target arrived or even targetting its allies.

**Pilau Rice**

Hawkward wrote:Judging from that, the Men of Stone would be cyborgs of some kind, as they're clearly distinct from the Men of Iron but also standing apart from the Golden Race of Man.

I wouldn't be surprised if the Men of Stone were somehow related to the Martian Empire, or progenitors of the Adeptus Mechanicus. It would certainly explain why the Men of Iron went rogue, if their source was on Mars where a C'tan lived.

This is also what I am thinking.

The Golden Men being early humans, which the Emperor was at this time, but the Human above all Humans. The Stone Men are possibly some form of Proto Mechanicus, who have little emotion and connection to nature but have the gift of inventing above all else.

I formulated some form of idea that the Iron Men were in some way related to the Void Dragon on Mars in a previous thread on this topic.

Here we go

Pilau Rice wrote:
Conservationist wrote:Well, i thought i read in Lexi that STCs were made by humans when they first expanded and explored the galaxy (Dark Age of Technology), these STCs contained all the information needed to construct structures, vehicles and just about anything else. So i dont agree that it could have Necron influence.

Okie dokie - I can understand why you say that. But hear me out

The Journal of Keeper Cripias
To watch and learn from Mankind, the Golden Race spreads across the face of Old Earth, multiplying and establishing Order and Civilisation on the anarchy of Nature. In time, the Second Men of the Stone Race appear, and in their wake come many miracles and marvels of technology that strengthen to Sone Men’s power, but are also harnessed by those of the Golden Race

So the Stone Men haven't left earth yet

The Stone Race builds great machines of power that send both Men of Stone and Men of Gold into the Ether. However, once the burgeoning race of Mankind has taken its first steps into the greater cosmos, the Golden Race dwindles in influence through their dependence on the artifices of the Stone Race. This the Golden Age comes to an end and the Stone Men prevail.

Now they have

For the next 5.000 years, the Stone Race lives through the Dark Age of Technology. Little can be determined from the Dark Age of Technology, for the majority of existing records concerning that period are gathered in the Librarius Omnis of Mars, and none outside the highest ranks of the Adeptus Mechanicus can gain access past its most determined Guardians (Keeper Malrubius tried once, but to no avail. We have surmised that during the Dark Age of Technology, the Men of Ston create the Iron Men to help them in the building of their Great Empire.

Now it's my idea that the Men of Stone have established their base of operations on Mars, where the majority of their records are.

Many of the technical marvels that the Priesthood of Mars sustain can be traced to their origins in the Dark Age of Technology, and it is at the end of this period that the great organisation know now as the Adeptus Mechanicus was founded.

We know that Mars was settled before the Age of Strife

Titan Legions 1994
On Mars the process of disintegration began as it did on Earth, but because of the unique conditions on Mars events were to develop entirely differently

However, this was not to be, for a new idea began to spread amongst the people, a religion of survival - the Cult Mechanicus dedicated to the Machine God.

So the early settlers on Mars became the Adeptus Mechanicum.

Et Voila - The early settlers on Mars, possibly the Stone Men, influenced by the the Void Dragon who was imprisoned on Mars way before they got there and created the Iron Men possibly in the image of the Necrons.

**Uhlan**

That stuff from third edition is really interesting.

From what perspective should you view this story. Is it from the perspective of the Men of Mars/Mechanicus or the Terrans before the battle for Terra and the Great Crusade? There is a very primitive aspect to it as if the story was simplified for reasons unknown. So I wonder what state the source of the story/legend was in.

In some ways it does seem to carry a heavy bias toward the Mechanicus. Perhaps written by GW before the current Great Crusade, Emperor, Primarch fluff took shape.

It's hard to believe 40k is over 20 years old... you could get a degree in Fluff Archaeology with this game. Fun though.

**terminator44**

There were robots in RT, I can remember the cool picture tht accompanied the section but not the fluff or rules (at work at the mo). I think that there were special rules that randomised their use on the battlefield.

However further to this there were rules for Imperial War robots in WD (100?), they were not artificial intelligences. Rather were mechanical bodies with simple organic cortecies, so more like servitors really ergo the program rules that they had. So in-lined with current Admech fluff/POV.

The RT book says they were equipped with auto-systems, whatever those were. You could apparently turn any vehicle or crew-served weapon into a robot with these systems. You had to roll to determine their basic stats. The Intelligence stat determined things like how fast the robot moved, how wide its firing arc was, and how far in advance you had to write move orders. You also had to roll d100s to determine what weapons they had, but you had to do this for all units (it was possible for a Space Marine to get stuck with a lasgun or autogun if you rolled above a 95, and there was a 1 in 10 chance they would not have a bolt pistol!).

It sounds like a pain in the ass (and probably is), but I find the idea of writing a psuedoprogram for a robot unit interesting. It gives me a chance to actually use my computer science education!

**Pilau Rice**

Uhlan wrote:That stuff from third edition is really interesting.

From what perspective should you view this story. Is it from the perspective of the Men of Mars/Mechanicus or the Terrans before the battle for Terra and the Great Crusade? There is a very primitive aspect to it as if the story was simplified for reasons unknown. So I wonder what state the source of the story/legend was in.

In some ways it does seem to carry a heavy bias toward the Mechanicus. Perhaps written by GW before the current Great Crusade, Emperor, Primarch fluff took shape.

It is from the perspective of:

Dated in the year of our Emperor 993.M41

For seventy long years I have laboured as Master Finnias laboured before me, and Master Shadiel before him, through eight hundred and thirty six generations of Keepers of the Library Sanctus of Terra. It has been our endeavour, our life-long aim, to compile a history of the majesty of the Human Race from the archives which are our worship. In his benevolent wisdom, the Emperor has granted me the singular and great honour and pleasure of completing this sacred task in my own lifespan.

Uhlan wrote:It's hard to believe 40k is over 20 years old... you could get a degree in Fluff Archaeology with this game. Fun though.

I know man, I'm still learning about old stuff from back then and there is always more to know. Some of the new fluff just doesn't have the same appeal to me, not necessarily because it's new, it just doesn't have the same feel to it nor is it as well thought out and they seem to forget some of the stuff that has been established for many many years.