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from that quote it seems like Golden Men refers to the Sensei

Stone Men still refers to normal humans,

Iron Men are the intelligente AI machines the Stone Men made,

Silver Men could possably be the Martian Empire.

@Pilau Rice

I really enjoy some of the older fluff as well. There seemed to be much more mysticism and legend involved.

Grey Templar wrote:from that quote it seems like Golden Men refers to the Sensei

Stone Men still refers to normal humans,

Iron Men are the intelligente AI machines the Stone Men made,

Silver Men could possably be the Martian Empire.

Sensei are the Emperors descendants aren't they? That would kind of make them coming at the same time kind of difficult

Iron Men, yep, agree with you there.

Silver Men?

Well the Quote said the Emperor was joined by the Golden Men.

so at some point his children sought him out. one thing about the Sensei was that the Emperor couldn't detect them with his psychic powers. he didn't even know of some of their existance.

so they began to gather and meet with him regularly, possably becoming the original Illuminati.

Grey Templar wrote:Well the Quote said the Emperor was joined by the Golden Men.

so at some point his children sought him out. one thing about the Sensei was that the Emperor couldn't detect them with his psychic powers. he didn't even know of some of their existance.

so they began to gather and meet with him regularly, possably becoming the original Illuminati.

I take the joined part as that they appeared at the same time, the difference is that they didn't stay in the shadows like the Emperor, but took an active part in bringing order.

Perhaps the Stone men are just the precursor robots to the Iron men, less advanced robots of some sort.

Once the robots(stone men) start building more, fancier robots(iron men), things start getting out of hand.

I still think the men of stone are "normal" humans. The Golden Race seem to be some sort of Lord of the Rings style "purer" humans of the Aragorn variety.

Which is why i say they are the Sensei.

But they are pre-Emperor or at least concurrent with him. The Emperor either is of the Golden Race or created by them or directly related to them in some way. He's even called the Golden Man.

we can assume the Sensei were born prior to the Emperor becoming the Warlord who united Terra.

most likely during the 20K years he was disguised as a normal human.


so between 8000BC and M29AD

Kanluwen wrote:

Kommissar Kel wrote:
Basically it is GWs giant blatant rip-off of the Butlerian jihad by Frank Herbert(Dune). Robots are now outlawed and we have cyberneticly augmented human super computers to do the computers work for us(read: Dune mentats), or Cyborg lobotomized slaves for heavy lifting and etc(No Dune analog, thankfully).

Considering no specifics of the Butlerian Jihad had been actually detailed when the 'Iron Men' had been introduced, it's kind of hard for it to be a ripoff.

The only details I remember of the Butlerian Jihad from Frank Herbert's books were that it happened and that it was bad.

Full specifics no, but the exact same basic story is detailed in Dune; One of the early chapters when Paul is explaining Hawat and the Mentats(and why they exist)

Basic story: We made robots, robots rebelled and tried to kill us, AI is forbidden.

The book Butlerian Jihad details the exact specifics and the events that occurred during the Jihad(which is alot more information than we have ever been given for the 40k version)

By Pre-Emperor I mean before he was even alive. They're probably The Old Ones. Note how they're not called Men.

the Emperor was born in 8000BC


I doubt the golden men came first.

The whole point of the golden race is that they're prehistoric. So they should be kicking around at that time or before.

Aren`t robots considered as Technoheresy?

Yes, this is what caused that belief.

Necanor wrote:Aren`t robots considered as Technoheresy?

Sort of. The AdMech still maintains the Legio Cybernetica, which are military-use machines using a semi-organic cortex to handle information-loading and data-processing functions. They're not quite AI-driven T-100 hunter-killer models, but they're definitely something greater than simple servitors, and not as organic (or human in origin) as a skitarii.

Robots to a degree are fine, it's Artificial Intelligence that isn't allowed.

Machines like Land Raiders have the Machine Spirit which essentially is it soul and as Psienesis mentions, the Semi Organic Cortex more or less does the same thing, but still required human interaction.

The Iron Men had no souls and AI.

There is a sect within the AdMech that wants to bring AI back, however. I believe they are called the Logicians.

Men of Iron = AI robots that led to the age of strife.

Men of Stone = basically us normal schmucks.

Men of Gold = ancients of myth and legend that first led humanity out of the caves and from barbarism, and laid the groundwork of civilization. This could have very well been the shamans or whoever that combined to create the Emperor, or the Emperor's sons that he created in order to lead humanity of out barbarism etc. etc.

That's how I always understood it, anyway, but it's never specified one way or the other.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:I still think the men of stone are "normal" humans. The Golden Race seem to be some sort of Lord of the Rings style "purer" humans of the Aragorn variety.

This is the closest parallel I can think of.

Thanks.

Men of iron: Robots, cyborgs, AIs, extreme forms of transhumanism... Think Iain M. Banks' Culture gone grimdark.

Men of stone, men of gold... no idea. It rings a bell somehow, though. IIRC, the Incas believed in "men of stone", undefeated, fearless warriors of the past that became so strong that they morphed into statues of stone to be worshipped by future generations. Also, some modern, theosophy-inspired belief systems have "men of whatever" in their cosmologies. These mostly make no sense but still are used to make the whole pseudo-norse or pseudo-eastern thing sound mystic and/or ancient.

I don't think whoever wrote that piece of fluff had any specific events or races in mind. The "men of stone" and "men of gold" are used to exemplify that, as you move down through the timeline, events become blurrier and myth replaces fact. By the 41st millenium, the events surrounding the men of iron are still vaguely remembered and even have become a cautionary tale of sorts, but anything older than that is shrouded by ignorance and myth.

The "men of gold" could be us XXIst Century humans. Who knows how our feats, battles and leaders would be remembered in 38.000 years time!

Ah. RT/Warhammer 40K, such fond memories of first seeing that game so long back in 1988!

Yes, combots got to have porgrams that made them move and fight pre-ordianed by the programs and commands you gave them. Unfortunately many players did not like being that specific about their minis moving and such, so they got dropped, period.

As for Men Of Iron being like the Butlerian Jihad robots, well, Dune had been out for some time and gave a synopsis of the Butlerian Jihad as in Robots outlawed as their AI turned against Humans, hence why we use enhganced humans for cogitation, and all cogitators (computeros) are more like Babbage machines.

So, from Dune we get the Men of Iron(Butlerian Jihad) with minor tweeks.

The Golden throne, but 40k's is more than just a throne.

Sardaukar(genetically enhanced super soldiers) to Marines
Then the powered armor comes from Starship Troopers by Heinlein's book which is even older than Dune.

Imperial Guard=House Troopers.

The divided society where guilds and other formations handle specific elements of the culture, like the Assassin houses, the Ad-Mech, the other orgs so on.

The Sensei are like the Jedi, freedom fighters mostly as children of the Emperor, they are also hunted for such activity. they cannot breed for they are sterile yet immortal, but if killed, they have no kids to avenge them, just their brothers and possibly sisters to do so, if they are aware of the death.

Also, certain items or units were more expensive, but had things re-introed in Apocalypse, Landraiders cost 750pts due to having power fields to protect them. (yes, you had to collapse the fields first to get to hurt the armor!) hence the high cost!

Bloodthirsters had 10 for almost all the stats and cost 1,000pts, and the Tyranids were merley what you would call gaunts and a now defunct race called Zoats!

But yes, like the Dune inspired story, the Men of Iron tried to kill of all humanity and that is why the Imperium does NOT allow sentient robots.

The men of stone can't be robots, it says in that fluff that the men of gold faded away, so the men of stone have to be humans as we know them in 40k.

.

I think the most likely scenario is that the Men of Stone where the Mechanicum of Mars that would later be known as Adeptus Mechanicus. I remember reading that even during the DAoT "humans" worshipped technology as a god so I think that quote about the Golden Men becoming more dependant on the inventions of the Stone Men and the Stone Men prevails simply means the Mechanicus becoming the most dominant force in the galaxy (because of all the technology they invented).

Another thing is that it says the Golden Men went out in space to expand their domain. I think a lot in that quote hints of a twin-empire expanding into space, one more technology-oriented and the other slightly more philosophical.

Who else could they be but Mars and Terra? Where is this about Golden Men being "purer" humans coming from? I know about the Sensei being the Emperor's real children but were there really that many to talk about them as an additional force on the side of the Stone Men (them being the Mechanicus or the normal humans)?

Could the Men of Stone not be a hint to Squats? I know its far fetch but why not. I remember squats having robots in the old rogue trader days. Maybe a reason to the extinction of squats!

Also the Greeks had a fable/ledgend about people being made out of metals by the gods, the copper ones were too warlike, the silver ones just admired themselves, then they made us out of clay.

But I also respect the theory Lasher's posted above, which makes a lot of sense to me.