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Hq

Grand master -200
rad grenades
master crafted sword
Blind grenades


troops
Terminator squad -220
psybolt ammo
3 halberds
1 sword
1 hammer

GK strike squad -305
10 men
psybolt ammo
1 hammer
2 psycannons
Rhino with HKM
dozer blade

GK strike squad -305
10 men
psybolt ammo
1 hammer
2 psycannons
Rhino with HKM
dozer blade

GK strike squad -305
10 men
psybolt ammo
1 hammer
2 psycannons
Rhino with HKM
dozer blade

Elites
Venerable Dread -190
assault cannon
psybolt ammo
( keeps doom fist )

Fast attack
storm raven Gunship -205
twin linked plasma cannon
Multi melta

Heavy support

Dreadnought - 135
TL auto cannon
TL auto cannon
psybolt ammo

Dreadnought - 135
TL auto cannon
TL auto cannon
psybolt ammo

what do you think ???
everything save the tanks is ( or can become ) scoreing

anyone?

Firstly I don't think psybolt ammo is worth it in small squads as it makes the models cost 4 points more for +1 strength.

Daemon hammers in the strike squads are probably not worth it as they only get a single attack base.

Stormraven is just asking for trouble on it's own.

I'd also make that single Venerable a normal Dreadnought, it's not worth the points and you have enough heavy supoprt slots free.

The ven dread has much more survivability than the standard model. I like them. The storm raven is my favorite unit. Being able to threaten any unit on the board is very handy. If used correctly and some luck you can pick off long range high strength low ap units leaving the GK to fight were they are best, mid range transition to cc. i kinda assume that you load the ven dread and the hq with termies and attempt a turn 2 assault on their heavy weapons. Its a ballsy. No risk no reward.

@ Mercer
what do you mean in small number for psybolt ammo the only unit thats 5 man that has them is the termies and thats just to give me a little extra punch on the charge is i need it

i understand that they only have 1 attack base but what if a walker gets ahold of me or there is a land raider wiht in assault range ..im going to need something thats a higher strangth than a psycannon and if i but on the justicar i get the extra attack ( understanding the risk of blowing his head up)

and your informaion on dreads is wrong they have 2 attacks base


Automatically Appended Next Post:
@ red hair dave
Thanks
yes you are right about the turn 2 assault
and yes i think the storm raven is great
move 12" and be able to fire everything ( poms and deffensive missles )

Ditch Psybolt on the Terminators and the MC weapon on your Grand Master and give the unit a Psycannon. Mercer is right about that; Psybolt Ammo is not worth it if the squad is below 7 models or so, and you would be much better off with a Psycannon for 5 more points. Keep the Hammers on the Strike Squads, but make sure it's on the Justicar who has 2 attacks base, and if you can find the points, it's worth Master Crafting the weapon to make sure you hit at least once.

Aside from those issues, I think the lone Storm Raven is begging to be blown up on first turn. As a Space Wolves player, I thoroughly enjoy wrecking those things early in the game and forcing my opponents assault units to walk across the board. They are incredibly cool vehicles, but they are pretty flimsy in a game dominated by Missile Launcher spam. It would be a better use of points to ditch the Venerable Dread (I don't care what anyone says, 60 points is NOT worth +1 WS/BS and the equivalent of Holofields) and use the points to upgrade the Stormraven to a Land Raider Redeemer, which is much more durable and just as fast on a turn you want to assault. You would then have some extra points to play with.

I think this would serve your purposes a bit better:

Grand Master (Rad Grenades, Psycannon) - 235
5 Terminators (Psycannon, Hammer) - 225
10 GKSS (2x Psycannon, MC Hammer, Psybolt Ammo, Rhino) - 295
10 GKSS (2x Psycannon, MC Hammer, Psybolt Ammo, Rhino) - 295
10 GKSS (2x Psycannon, MC Hammer, Psybolt Ammo, Rhino) - 295
Land Raider Redeemer (Multi-Melta, Psybolt Ammo) - 260
Dreadnought (2x TL Autocannon, Psybolt Ammo) - 135
Dreadnought (2x TL Autocannon, Psybolt Ammo) - 135
Total 1,875

That gives you 125 points to mess with. I suppose you could drop the Psycannon on the Grand Master and a few odds and ends to fit the Venerable Dreadnought back in, but I still don't think he's worth the points. Either way I think the list is much more durable with the Land Raider in place of the Stormraven.

@ Aldaronn
i really like your list but there is one thing that i dont like is lack of total useage of the grand strategy ....what if i roll a three .... have to give everyone 1 single choice ( was going to make all dreads scoreing at all costs ) but whith this list it would be a waste if i rolled high

2 venerable dreads outperform 3 normal dreads after 2 turns of firing. They are actually a bargain at +60 pts compared to a normal dreadnought, and the maths is there to back that up (I've posted the maths elsewhere).

The reasons to take normal dreadnoughts over venerables is because other choices have restriced your points so much you can't afford two venerables, you have other elite choices than mean you can't take two venerables or you think that you offer so many other AV targets that your dreadnoughts won't be targeted.

But if you are taking 3 ordinary dreadnoughts, 2 venerables will always be better value for money except when the enemy has so much firepower that hecan eliminate all your AV12 on turn one regardless of the (massive) increased survivability of the venerables.

In my experience, the tabletop confirms the maths on this.

The tactical fail wrote:@ Aldaronn
i really like your list but there is one thing that i dont like is lack of total useage of the grand strategy ....what if i roll a three .... have to give everyone 1 single choice ( was going to make all dreads scoreing at all costs ) but whith this list it would be a waste if i rolled high

I think you need to reread the description of Grand Strategy Unyielding Anvil and also read page 90 of the rulebook under scoring units. These two rules do not contradict eachother.

So even when using Unyielding Anvil on a walker and making it claim objectives as if it was a troops, page 90 of the rulebook still applies which specifies a troops does not count as scoring when it is a vehicle.

I pretty sure 1 venerable dreadnought has a hard time outperforming a standard dreadnought armed the exact same way - have to agree its extremely overpriced.

I agree you should keep the hammers in the GKSS. Just give it to the Justicar clearly.

I would drop blind grenades and get brain mines and you just have to take psychotropic grenades don't you?

Storm Raven is just a fools errand i think. probably the most overpriced vehicle in all of war hammer - LR just a little more does the same job twice as well and has more firepower.

DutchSage wrote:

The tactical fail wrote:@ Aldaronn
i really like your list but there is one thing that i dont like is lack of total useage of the grand strategy ....what if i roll a three .... have to give everyone 1 single choice ( was going to make all dreads scoreing at all costs ) but whith this list it would be a waste if i rolled high

I think you need to reread the description of Grand Strategy Unyielding Anvil and also read page 90 of the rulebook under scoring units. These two rules do not contradict eachother.

So even when using Unyielding Anvil on a walker and making it claim objectives as if it was a troops, page 90 of the rulebook still applies which specifies a troops does not count as scoring when it is a vehicle.

the codex overrides this rule im sure or else what would be the point in it specificly saying monsterous creatures and walkers can claim objectives ....there would be none

I would redirect you to:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/150/365591.page#2773223

While there is a lot of misinformation in that thread, mostly due to misquoting the Unyielding Anvil entry, but also a lot of conjecture without a basis in the rules, there are some well put out arguments why Dreads do not score and no rule based arguments why they can. So until an errata changes the wording of Unyielding Anvil, the rules say Dreads can not score when given Unyielding Anvil.

Grand strategy is useful if the GM can make some elite or FA units to become scoring but you have no such units in your army.
How about a Librarian being a perfect support character?

LR just a little more does the same job twice as well and has more firepower.

Sorry what? Now granted I'm not s huge backer of the storm raven but to say that a LR has more firepower is just plain wrong. Unless you think 1 multimelta is more fire power than 1 Twinlinked Multimelta and 4 Missiles...

While there is a lot of misinformation in that thread, mostly due to misquoting the Unyielding Anvil entry, but also a lot of conjecture without a basis in the rules, there are some well put out arguments why Dreads do not score and no rule based arguments why they can. So until an errata changes the wording of Unyielding Anvil, the rules say Dreads can not score when given Unyielding Anvil.

I've read the thread and whilst it is correct RaW the Walkers can't score, everyone in that thread knows RaI it can't. So sure you can house rule it to follow the RaW or you can trying to cheat by breaking what is the clear intent of the rule to follow the RaW, personally I'd rather play by the rules. It is one of the many things you'll have to check with your gaming group and/or TO before using the army though to avoid arguments.

Although even with the scoring dreads I'm not convinced the strategy has much legs. Lone Storm Ravens die turn 1, unless you've got a libby with Shrouding and you go first. Heck at 2k often even lone Landraiders will struggle to survive. So while the rest of your army has merit the Ven Dread, SR and TErmmie squad with HQ don't really seem to help you as much as you think.

ehhh, LR will likely live the entire game or at least till turn 3 baring some really bad luck - Storm raven dead first turn - hence more firepower.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Consider taking no vehicals in a GK army. Every weapon in your army is assault so you are pretty mobile even without a transport. With a grand master you can infiltrate up to 3 options of your choice and strike squads and termies can deep strike. So why give you opponents 1 shot heavy weapons something to shoot at? You should really bring a libi to every fight too - Quicksilver will give you the edge in every assault. Shrouding gives your troops mad survivability in cover.

Artemo wrote:2 venerable dreads outperform 3 normal dreads after 2 turns of firing. They are actually a bargain at +60 pts compared to a normal dreadnought, and the maths is there to back that up (I've posted the maths elsewhere).

The reasons to take normal dreadnoughts over venerables is because other choices have restriced your points so much you can't afford two venerables, you have other elite choices than mean you can't take two venerables or you think that you offer so many other AV targets that your dreadnoughts won't be targeted.

But if you are taking 3 ordinary dreadnoughts, 2 venerables will always be better value for money except when the enemy has so much firepower that hecan eliminate all your AV12 on turn one regardless of the (massive) increased survivability of the venerables.

In my experience, the tabletop confirms the maths on this.

The survivability of 2x Venerable Dreads vs 3x standard Dreads depends entirely on your opponents ability to suppress AV12 beyond 24" (assuming Psyfleman configuration for both). The most common weapon fired at them will be Missile Launchers and occasionally Lascannons. A Missile Launcher has a 7.26% chance to destroy a Dreadnought and a 2.42% chance to destroy a Venerable Dreadnought. That means it takes 41.32 missiles at BS4 to take down 3x Dreadnoughts and it takes 82.64 missiles to take down 2x Venerable Dreadnoughts, so I suppose you are correct. After 41 BS4 missile shots all three of the regular Dreads would be taken down (about 3 turns of shooting for 18 Long Fangs), and only a single Venerable Dread would be gone.

The issue is that if your opponent doesn't have such a high concentration of missile fire, and instead has a bunch of Melta, the 3x regular Dreads would be more valuable since they can cause more damage in fewer turns while the Meltagun troops close in. Also, AP1 weaponry in general vastly improves your chances of taking down a Venerable Dread. It goes from a 4/36 chance on a pen to a 1/36 on a glance and a 9/36 on a pen. That means a single Meltagun has a 14.04% chance to take down a Venerable Dread as opposed to a 27.79% chance to take down a regular Dread, and you need 10.79 Meltaguns to take out 3x Dreads and 14.25 Meltaguns to take out 2x Venerable Dreads. Against melta weaponry, the extra target saturation would be an advantage because any unit with a decent concentration of Melta risks wasting the shots when firing multiples at a standard Dreadnought. Against a Venerable Dread there is less waste to firing multiple shots.

I guess it really does come down to points, since both high concentrations of Missiles and Meltaguns exist, and not always in the same army. If you have enough points for 3x Dreads, it's better to take 2x Venerables in most cases since they are more accurate and twice as durable for about the same price. If you don't have enough for 2x Venerables, it's probably better to take 2x Regulars than 1x Venerable since they have a much higher percentage of firepower and are about the same when it comes to durability.

Interesting.

RinesofGlory wrote:ehhh, LR will likely live the entire game or at least till turn 3 baring some really bad luck - Storm raven dead first turn - hence more firepower.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Consider taking no vehicals in a GK army. Every weapon in your army is assault so you are pretty mobile even without a transport. With a grand master you can infiltrate up to 3 options of your choice and strike squads and termies can deep strike. So why give you opponents 1 shot heavy weapons something to shoot at? You should really bring a libi to every fight too - Quicksilver will give you the edge in every assault. Shrouding gives your troops mad survivability in cover.

Land Raiders are a pretty prime target, and the likely scenario is your opponent is going to try for some turn 1 Melta, or at the latest turn 2. If you don't have enough target saturation to draw some of that fire away from the Land Raider, you will likely lose it early. Most lists bring a pretty strong concentration of Melta.

As for the infantry list idea, I do like it, but I think a Deep Strike infantry list is generally a better option since you get in your opponents face early and with a high concentration of troops (assuming you build the list correctly). Also, I didn't think Infiltration was an option for Grand Strategy. Scout was, but Scout only gives you a move before the game starts and the ability to outflank, not the ability to set up as infiltrators. I could be wrong though, because my codex is in my case at home and I'm at work.

FlingitNow wrote:I've read the thread and whilst it is correct RaW the Walkers can't score, everyone in that thread knows RaI it can't. So sure you can house rule it to follow the RaW or you can trying to cheat by breaking what is the clear intent of the rule to follow the RaW, personally I'd rather play by the rules. It is one of the many things you'll have to check with your gaming group and/or TO before using the army though to avoid arguments.

I am sorry, but could you clean up the can and can't usage a bit as it makes no sense at the moment.

It looks like you are saying that the intention is for them to score and you believe everyone agrees on that intention (which I disagree with and so do multiple other people in that thread). Than you say that it is a houserule to play the rule as it is written and so playing the rule as it is written is breaking the rules of the game and even cheating ???

I agree with you that I rather play by the rules and as such I will not allow Dreadnought to be played as a scoring unit.

@ original poster: I know this goes into the YMTC terrain, but seeing as the main premise of your list was that you could make it entirely scoring I believe that it is imperative to realise that unless you create a Houserule that says they can score and also have Tournament Organizers make that same Houserule that tactic won't work.

My mistake, you are right about the infiltrators Aldarionn - its just a scout move. However, that could still be very useful if it meant you could start the game in cover - counter attack would probably be the better option though. Especially if your plan was to hold the middle of the board with 3+ cover saves from shrouding.

Although outflanking with psychic communion would be really solid as well.

DutchSage wrote:

FlingitNow wrote:I've read the thread and whilst it is correct RaW the Walkers can't score, everyone in that thread knows RaI it can't. So sure you can house rule it to follow the RaW or you can trying to cheat by breaking what is the clear intent of the rule to follow the RaW, personally I'd rather play by the rules. It is one of the many things you'll have to check with your gaming group and/or TO before using the army though to avoid arguments.

I am sorry, but could you clean up the can and can't usage a bit as it makes no sense at the moment.

It looks like you are saying that the intention is for them to score and you believe everyone agrees on that intention (which I disagree with and so do multiple other people in that thread). Than you say that it is a houserule to play the rule as it is written and so playing the rule as it is written is breaking the rules of the game and even cheating ???

I agree with you that I rather play by the rules and as such I will not allow Dreadnought to be played as a scoring unit.

@ original poster: I know this goes into the YMTC terrain, but seeing as the main premise of your list was that you could make it entirely scoring I believe that it is imperative to realise that unless you create a Houserule that says they can score and also have Tournament Organizers make that same Houserule that tactic won't work.

And you can go ahead and play that way i under stand that YOU people think that walkers cant score EVEN thou its says they score like a troop does ( witch means they no longer score like a walker does and that is NO scoreing) but i digress this is not YMTC although i will say but all the people at my flgs beleve
1 scout shunting is legal
2 scoreing dreads is legal
im sorry but your not going to change the thoughts and minds for the people at my store so while you can make that arguement it will be a pointless one. i am sorry


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Now can we get some more opinions on my army

Besides 2x Rifle dreads (which I would target first always, unless you had something in my face immediately) you have no long range firepower, a good agile army would give you a run for your money. Most good players should know GKs dominate within 24 inches and stay out of the sweet spot. Also army with a lot of supressing firepower like leaf blower IG would be able to pop those transports and force you to slog though cover while being filled with holes. I think the problem is you don't really have a distraction unit to throw your opponent off while you wait for the rest of the army to advance, maybe you could use dedicated deepstriking or outflanking squad? Even for a GK list your model count is quite low, sitting at 36 with 3x dreads.

DutchSage wrote:

FlingitNow wrote:I've read the thread and whilst it is correct RaW the Walkers can't score, everyone in that thread knows RaI it can't. So sure you can house rule it to follow the RaW or you can trying to cheat by breaking what is the clear intent of the rule to follow the RaW, personally I'd rather play by the rules. It is one of the many things you'll have to check with your gaming group and/or TO before using the army though to avoid arguments.

I am sorry, but could you clean up the can and can't usage a bit as it makes no sense at the moment.

It looks like you are saying that the intention is for them to score and you believe everyone agrees on that intention (which I disagree with and so do multiple other people in that thread). Than you say that it is a houserule to play the rule as it is written and so playing the rule as it is written is breaking the rules of the game and even cheating ???

I agree with you that I rather play by the rules and as such I will not allow Dreadnought to be played as a scoring unit.

@ original poster: I know this goes into the YMTC terrain, but seeing as the main premise of your list was that you could make it entirely scoring I believe that it is imperative to realise that unless you create a Houserule that says they can score and also have Tournament Organizers make that same Houserule that tactic won't work.

I'm still 50/50 on this. If they wanted walkers scoring with Grand Strategy there should probably be a specific line under the Hold The Line section specifically saying that they could do so. Then again, if they DIDN'T want walkers scoring with Grand Strategy there should probably be a specific line under the Hold The Line section stating that Hold The Line cannot be granted to Walkers. Lazy writing leads to mixed signals in the rules, and there is really no clear way to call it. The intention could just as likely be that Grand Strategy overrules the Rulebooks statement that vehicles don't score as the other way around, so I will wait for the official FAQ before I try it in a tournament, and I will clear it with my opponents before using it in a casual game, much like I do with Shunting on a Scout move (though I'm more firmly in the "this works" corner on that issue).

RinesofGlory wrote:My mistake, you are right about the infiltrators Aldarionn - its just a scout move. However, that could still be very useful if it meant you could start the game in cover - counter attack would probably be the better option though. Especially if your plan was to hold the middle of the board with 3+ cover saves from shrouding.

Although outflanking with psychic communion would be really solid as well.

Outflanking is a lot more random than Deep Strike. I would rather have a 1D6 scatter with Servo Skulls than a 33% chance that my forces will be completely split on two sides of the board and hoofing it. A couple of GKSS in Rhinos with Scout can get 24" across the board on turn 1, which affords a hell of a lot of mobility, so I think I'd rather Deep Strike with Inquisitors, or Scout move with a Grandmaster.

The way i run my GM is with Psyco grenades and M.crafted/digital Depending if i have the points i might throw some type of Shooter on him. Totally up to you, but the Psyco chart has worked wonders for me. The terminators, as i have yet to use them...eh.. i can't really speak on them..I am still a solid believer in Hammer n shield termies, and GK cannot take them..so i don't take termies lol. Psybolt ammo in the strike squads is not worth it. You have 20 Bolter shots(if all in range) being thrown out, from personal experience as i run only 10 man units..it's going to help out, then simply crash into them and hack away.. if your bound to spend the 20 points.. give them halberds instead..a i6 power weapon attack with the ability for Insta death is damn sexy. I myself take a single stormraven. Altho i use Assualt cannon, but whatever works for you..i don't like scatter die so i try not to use them if possible.(theory is why take away a +3 hit for a random direction at + inches?) The dread's i do like. I agree with most fellers that ven dreads are the way to go..IF....IF you have the points. In my last game i ran 2 normal Psydreads and one was gone turn 2, the second one actually damn near won the game for me..so choice is yours..3 dreads with 12 Srt 8 shots flying across the board or 2 dreads( possibly 3..again points allowing)

Now as far as the scoring deal for walkers and such... everyone at my shop has looked over the new GK codex the day it came out. We all talked it over and agree what we think the rules mean..and voted on how to play them. Myself.. I feel strongly in the camp of they do score.. Why else put in the codex and i quote "Roll a D3 and choose that many infantry, jump infantry, monstrous creatures or walker units in your army" Then for Unyielding Anvil "The nominated units can claim objectives as if they were troops" Now..i am the only one in our store to play grey knights..and gave everyone the chance to tell me no on this... but everyone agree that sometimes a rule is what it says int he codex..common sense sometimes comes into play to make life a bit easier.

With all that said for the walker scoring deal.. i agree with the OP that my mind is made up rock solid on these rules, and will not change until i see a FAQ. Just me offering my 2 cents on the matter.

The tactical Fail wrote:@ Mercer
what do you mean in small number for psybolt ammo the only unit thats 5 man that has them is the termies and thats just to give me a little extra punch on the charge is i need it

i understand that they only have 1 attack base but what if a walker gets ahold of me or there is a land raider wiht in assault range ..im going to need something thats a higher strangth than a psycannon and if i but on the justicar i get the extra attack ( understanding the risk of blowing his head up)

and your informaion on dreads is wrong they have 2 attacks base

Right. Psybolt ammo costs 20 points that's 4 points extra per guy in a unit of 5 just to get +1 strength on the storm bolters? Worth the cost? I don't think, not in smaller units anyway.

Why are walkers getting into assault with you for? If you let walkers get into assault with you then that's bad luck/poor gaming on your behalf. You know what walkers can do so why wait to tackle them in combat instead of shooting?

I didn't say anything about Dreadnoughts attacks...I said the hammer has a single base attack only which means if you charge you need 4+ to hit and 3+ to glance if you're using hammerhand. Not that great.

well who ever said i was a good gamer in the first place thats why im here is it not if i didnt need help building lists i wouldnt be here
and also why would they make dreads if getting them into combat was so hard ( not saying its easy but its not as hard as you think )

and fyi hammers are strength 10 with hammer hand so it would be a 2 to glance and 3 to pen ...unless your talking about av 13 walkers 0.o

Dreadnoughts are not primarily for combat....

Indeed they are S10 but you still only get one attack.

mercer wrote:Indeed they are S10 but you still only get one attack.

throw it on a Justicar. base of 2 attacks.

RinesofGlory wrote:ehhh, LR will likely live the entire game or at least till turn 3 baring some really bad luck - Storm raven dead first turn - hence more firepower.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Consider taking no vehicals in a GK army. Every weapon in your army is assault so you are pretty mobile even without a transport. With a grand master you can infiltrate up to 3 options of your choice and strike squads and termies can deep strike. So why give you opponents 1 shot heavy weapons something to shoot at? You should really bring a libi to every fight too - Quicksilver will give you the edge in every assault. Shrouding gives your troops mad survivability in cover.

I like the "no vehicles" idea. I've got an 1850 list I'm running later this week vs. Tau that is footslogging, with two vendread psyflemen. That'll really put the survivability of the venerable rule to the test: can Venerable + Fortitude survive all those railguns?

I'll be running Crowe and a Librarian, loading the Purifier squads up with Psycannons, and running across the field blasting apart everything I can. Also have an 8-strong Interceptor unit for harassment duties.

I'll let you know now "no-vehicle-GK" works later this week

Arrathon wrote:

mercer wrote:Indeed they are S10 but you still only get one attack.

throw it on a Justicar. base of 2 attacks.

That's very true but what about if the Justicar fails the psychic test? That means bye-bye hammer. I guess it is swings and around abouts.

That's very true but what about if the Justicar fails the psychic test? That means bye-bye hammer. I guess it is swings and around abouts.

Not fails only Perils (1 in 18 chance) and the risk is worth it due to the extra attack. Only on Strikes and Interceptors is it worth it, on Purifiers and Terminators give it to a peon.

Perhaps my chances are unlucky as mine seem to be about 16/18 . Interceptors I can agree with.