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I see they got the short end of the stick with the sorcary and stuff but still they should be saved or something.

No acording to what I have heard...

All of 1k sons have been imprisoned in their power armor for the rest of eternity....

There is no reverse spell for that...at least noon ever found one...

Well they did that spell to prevent the mutation of Chaos seeping into the Marines.

Really from what I know, the SW got tricked and told to go beat up the TS.

They didn't deserve to be destroyed...
Admittedly they (the ones who can still form thoughts) have gone off into the deep end now but still...

Brother Coa wrote:No acording to what I have heard...

All of 1k sons have been imprisoned in their power armor for the rest of eternity....

There is no reverse spell for that...at least noon ever found one...

Only those Thousand Sons that had not pysker ability were sealed by the Rubic.

As to the question, it doesn't matter what happened during the Heresy, they have completely turned to chaos, you can't save a chaos marine.

They fell in one of the most tragic ways, but nonetheless they fell. Horus "tricked" Russ into killing off most of them, and in return Magnus nearly sacrificed himself and his people to prove his loyalty. In the end though Magnus went all crazy lightning bolty and nearly died before being whisked away to the new planet of the sorcerers with the remaining 1,000 sons. Skip a few thousand years and there really aren't many 1,000 sons left being that most are little more than magic dust in a powersuits.

Bad guys? Maybe not. Enemies of the empire? Heck yes, especially those of a wolfy nature.

I love the Thousand Sons, The Emperor banned sorcery but Magnus used it to warn BigE about Horus imminent Heresy, so BigE let the Wolves loose on Magnus. He took it like a man and did what he could to save his Legion. Now the only person who seems to do anything is Ahriman and he isn't bad, he just wants knowledge.

He didn't do what he could to save his legion though...
Russ gave him every chance to surrender before he launched his attack.
Magnus seemed to agree with the Emperor's supposed decision and let Russ attack him.

BluntmanDC wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:No acording to what I have heard...

All of 1k sons have been imprisoned in their power armor for the rest of eternity....

There is no reverse spell for that...at least noon ever found one...

Only those Thousand Sons that had not pysker ability were sealed by the Rubic.

As to the question, it doesn't matter what happened during the Heresy, they have completely turned to chaos, you can't save a chaos marine.

A bit off there - only the strongest of the Thousand Sons psykers weren't affected by the Rubric. After all, every single Thousand Son was a psyker.

As for saving them... Tzeentch had his hands in the Sons pretty early on, perhaps even as early as when he was stolen during his creation. Their gene-mutations were a mark of this.

lexicanum wrote:Those untouched by the flesh change had their psychic powers greatly strengthened, but those who had already mutated had their physical bodies reduced to dust and their animate spirits damned to live inside their armour forever.

This quote pretty much states it all.

It was not the psykers or non-psykers that were affected by the rubric, it was simply those already touched by the flesh change.

And by the way, I am almost certain that not all pre-heresy TS were psykers. However, this legion had by far the highest proportion of psykers within its ranks.

After the Rubric, however, the surviving TS that were not turned into automatons had their psychic powers revealed or greatly extended. Thus, the TS now only field rubric marines and sorcerers.

purplefood wrote:Russ gave him every chance to surrender before he launched his attack..

On this one, Russ was talking to a pawn he thought was Magnus' but wasn't.
So not only did he not give "every" chance, the one chance he did was to the wrong person. :(

The Wolves were only too willing to attack the Thousands Sons.
I'm surprised they waited for an "emperor approved" mandate.

purplefood wrote:He didn't do what he could to save his legion though...
Russ gave him every chance to surrender before he launched his attack.
Magnus seemed to agree with the Emperor's supposed decision and let Russ attack him.

Lies and Imperial mistruths.

Russ cooperated with Horus to spread the lie that the Emperor had accused his son of betrayal and ordered his execution.

Russ was an agent of Horus and attacked Magnus.

Russ' dogs were the first of the Astartes to spill their brothers' blood, and Magnus was seen as yet another trophy to add to the wolf lord's collection.

Sorcery and the flesh change were manifest in Russ' legion, he kept these heresies a secret from the Emperor.

The only way for Magnus to save his sons was by taking them to the Warp. He would have been better off sending Russ there to join his brother traitor legions.

Magnus pretty much "sold the soul" of the Legion without ever knowing it. His arrogance in believing he could control something he had no true grasp of, cost him and his Legion. Even though he did it all for the right reasons it could'nt save them. The irony that Mortarian sided against him and would later have to make a deal with the Devil to save his Legion is truly amazing.

Thanatos_elNyx wrote:

purplefood wrote:Russ gave him every chance to surrender before he launched his attack..

On this one, Russ was talking to a pawn he thought was Magnus' but wasn't.
So not only did he not give "every" chance, the one chance he did was to the wrong person. :(

The Wolves were only too willing to attack the Thousands Sons.
I'm surprised they waited for an "emperor approved" mandate.

He also sent numerous messages through conventional means to try and get Magnus to submit...
Magnus didn't reply but he stood down all orbital defences.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

biccat wrote:

purplefood wrote:He didn't do what he could to save his legion though...
Russ gave him every chance to surrender before he launched his attack.
Magnus seemed to agree with the Emperor's supposed decision and let Russ attack him.

Lies and Imperial mistruths.

Russ cooperated with Horus to spread the lie that the Emperor had accused his son of betrayal and ordered his execution.

Russ was an agent of Horus and attacked Magnus.

Russ' dogs were the first of the Astartes to spill their brothers' blood, and Magnus was seen as yet another trophy to add to the wolf lord's collection.

Sorcery and the flesh change were manifest in Russ' legion, he kept these heresies a secret from the Emperor.

The only way for Magnus to save his sons was by taking them to the Warp. He would have been better off sending Russ there to join his brother traitor legions.

Do you have proof for any of that?
I mean the flesh change sure but that's what the gene-seed does to some extent or another.
Russ may have been to blame for the other two legions... absence...
The legion had psykers but not sorcerors.
The rest is b*******t

purplefood wrote:
The rest is b*******t

I think you put one too many * in your b******t.

On a more serious note, I totally agree with you. THe SW were always loyal to the emperor, nor were they affected by the flesh change.

Laodamia wrote:

purplefood wrote:
The rest is b*******t

I think you put one too many * in your b******t.

On a more serious note, I totally agree with you. THe SW were always loyal to the emperor, nor were they affected by the flesh change.

Meh it can without a second l... having more than one is just greedy...

Still they are extremely powerful i wonder why their not the most popular chaos army.

Their cult troops cost a bomb both money and points wise...

True dat.

I agree to what's been said above- First, SW were betrayed by Horus first off, even though Magnus kinda screwed his legion from behind. Some K sons and SW did OK together at first, but then Prospero Burned, Magnus went Dark, and the whole chapter fell into hell... poor tragic heroes.

Too bad that the SW will beat you any day! We may seem dull, but Horus was the closest to the Emp of all...

Thats true that cost i think more than plague marines

Thousand Sons are, unfortunately, overpriced in the current Chaos codex. They're extremely slow, meaning you'll need to give them transports just to get them anywhere. Sure, they have AP 3 Bolters, but they still have bolters, and they're still T 4 Marines.

Plague Marines are taken more often, due to their higher toughness and ability to take a pair of special weapons. Khorne Berzerkers rip through infantry.

purplefood wrote:

biccat wrote:

purplefood wrote:He didn't do what he could to save his legion though...
Russ gave him every chance to surrender before he launched his attack.
Magnus seemed to agree with the Emperor's supposed decision and let Russ attack him.

Lies and Imperial mistruths.

Russ cooperated with Horus to spread the lie that the Emperor had accused his son of betrayal and ordered his execution.
Russ was told by Horus, in contradiction of the Emperor's orders, that he was to kill Magnus and exterminate the Thousand Sons. The foundation for this is well known.

Russ was an agent of Horus and attacked Magnus.
Russ was acting under orders from Horus, not the Emperor. Horus had already betrayed the Emperor and was using Russ to eliminate a threat to his chance at the Throne.

Russ may have been a stooge, but he was all too happy to disregard the Emperor's orders

Russ' dogs were the first of the Astartes to spill their brothers' blood, and Magnus was seen as yet another trophy to add to the wolf lord's collection.
It's heavily suggested that Russ was the one who took out the missing legions. This was well before Horus' betrayal.

Sorcery and the flesh change were manifest in Russ' legion, he kept these heresies a secret from the Emperor.
Even after the Council of Nikea, Russ continued to use psykers (er sorry, "rune priests") who manipulated the warp in the same way as Magnus' sorcerers.

And the flesh change is well established in the Space Wolves. Look at the 13th legion, or even the deformed warriors within the Space Wolves. The only difference between the Thousand Sons and Space Wolves is that Magnus didn't tolerate these abominations.

The only way for Magnus to save his sons was by taking them to the Warp. He would have been better off sending Russ there to join his brother traitor legions.

Do you have proof for any of that?
I mean the flesh change sure but that's what the gene-seed does to some extent or another.
Russ may have been to blame for the other two legions... absence...
The legion had psykers but not sorcerors.
The rest is b*******t

What do you mean "b******t"?

I added in clarifications of the various points. It's all well known elements of the fluff. Don't be sad that the space puppies are really traitors.

they do have invun saves though from memory


as for the thousand sons...was all a big mess set up by Horus to remove two big threats to his plans.

As it happened it didnt go to plan, the wolves didnt get as battered as he hoped and the Thousand Sons escaped..but were later forced due to their situation to ally themselves to his cause.

Reading Thousand Sons and Prospero Burns are great to get both sides of the story.

Makes you feel neither was particuarly to blame, it was all magic knife stabby Horus's fault.

Russ didn't disregard the Emperor's orders, he never even received those orders. Horus was already corrupt, this is true, but it had not been revealed yet. The Emperor sent Russ' orders to Horus, who then changed them before giving them to Russ. Russ thought all along that his orders from the Emperor were to attack the Thousand Sons.

On the subject of the missing legions, it is implied that Russ was involved in their destruction, but do you think the Space Wolves would have still existed if that hadn't been by the Emperor's command?

biccat wrote:

purplefood wrote:

biccat wrote:

purplefood wrote:He didn't do what he could to save his legion though...
Russ gave him every chance to surrender before he launched his attack.
Magnus seemed to agree with the Emperor's supposed decision and let Russ attack him.

Lies and Imperial mistruths.

Russ cooperated with Horus to spread the lie that the Emperor had accused his son of betrayal and ordered his execution.
Russ was told by Horus, in contradiction of the Emperor's orders, that he was to kill Magnus and exterminate the Thousand Sons. The foundation for this is well known.

Russ was an agent of Horus and attacked Magnus.
Russ was acting under orders from Horus, not the Emperor. Horus had already betrayed the Emperor and was using Russ to eliminate a threat to his chance at the Throne.

Russ may have been a stooge, but he was all too happy to disregard the Emperor's orders

Russ' dogs were the first of the Astartes to spill their brothers' blood, and Magnus was seen as yet another trophy to add to the wolf lord's collection.
It's heavily suggested that Russ was the one who took out the missing legions. This was well before Horus' betrayal.

Sorcery and the flesh change were manifest in Russ' legion, he kept these heresies a secret from the Emperor.
Even after the Council of Nikea, Russ continued to use psykers (er sorry, "rune priests") who manipulated the warp in the same way as Magnus' sorcerers.

And the flesh change is well established in the Space Wolves. Look at the 13th legion, or even the deformed warriors within the Space Wolves. The only difference between the Thousand Sons and Space Wolves is that Magnus didn't tolerate these abominations.

The only way for Magnus to save his sons was by taking them to the Warp. He would have been better off sending Russ there to join his brother traitor legions.

Do you have proof for any of that?
I mean the flesh change sure but that's what the gene-seed does to some extent or another.
Russ may have been to blame for the other two legions... absence...
The legion had psykers but not sorcerors.
The rest is b*******t

What do you mean "b******t"?

I added in clarifications of the various points. It's all well known elements of the fluff. Don't be sad that the space puppies are really traitors.

I don't deny that they possibly killed another legion or that they used psykers (not sorcerors since they are different things
However, Horus intercepted the Emperor's orders and changed them. Russ never recieved the original orders.
The 13th legion isn't completly changed, they just have a high number of them due to the length of time they have been struggling with it for.

lol this whole Space Wolves are traitors thing is just flamebait or raging

They aint, most can see the hypocracy of them using Runepriests whereas others were banned from using librarians. but even this was later recinded and you see almost every chapter doing it in post-heresy times.

Also if you want to see gene-seed deficiency or apparent naughtyness just look at the Blood Angels and the Dark Angels, it's not just restricted to the dogs of war!!

purplefood wrote:I don't deny that they possibly killed another legion or that they used psykers (not sorcerors since they are different things
However, Horus intercepted the Emperor's orders and changed them. Russ never recieved the original orders.
The 13th legion isn't completly changed, they just have a high number of them due to the length of time they have been struggling with it for.

The only difference between a "rune priest" and a "sorcerer" is the name and rationale for using the magic of the warp. However, the Space Wolves continued to use psykers in defiance of the Emperors Edict at Nikea.

As for the 13th company, they're simply an example. The flesh change varies from slight (wolf teeth) to complete (wolves of Fenris), with the 13th company lying somewhere in the middle. However, this doesn't change the fact that the Space Wolves tolerate the flesh change in their ranks.

If your argument about Horus and Russ is that Russ was at best a stooge and at worst a willing stooge of Horus, then I agree. But that doesn't change the fact that he acted on behalf of Horus the Traitor against a brother legion.

biccat wrote:

purplefood wrote:I don't deny that they possibly killed another legion or that they used psykers (not sorcerors since they are different things
However, Horus intercepted the Emperor's orders and changed them. Russ never recieved the original orders.
The 13th legion isn't completly changed, they just have a high number of them due to the length of time they have been struggling with it for.

The only difference between a "rune priest" and a "sorcerer" is the name and rationale for using the magic of the warp. However, the Space Wolves continued to use psykers in defiance of the Emperors Edict at Nikea.

As for the 13th company, they're simply an example. The flesh change varies from slight (wolf teeth) to complete (wolves of Fenris), with the 13th company lying somewhere in the middle. However, this doesn't change the fact that the Space Wolves tolerate the flesh change in their ranks.

If your argument about Horus and Russ is that Russ was at best a stooge and at worst a willing stooge of Horus, then I agree. But that doesn't change the fact that he acted on behalf of Horus the Traitor against a brother legion.

Sorcerors and Psykers are seperate things.
Yes Russ disobeyed the emperor's edicts but so did many of the legions.
The gene-seed changes them to a greater extent than other gene-seed changes other chapters. They accept this and carry on their duty. Anyone that does devolve into a Wulfen is executed so they don't exactly tolerate it.
Horus tricked Russ into attacking Prospero considering Russ then rushed to aid the Emperor at Terra i doubt he was willing.

Horus is the bad guy here.

Sorcerers use sacrifice, ritual, and pacts with daemons to get their power.

Psykers have it in their genetics. Runepriests are psykers. There's a very strong difference.

purplefood wrote:Sorcerors and Psykers are seperate things.
Yes Russ disobeyed the emperor's edicts but so did many of the legions.
The gene-seed changes them to a greater extent than other gene-seed changes other chapters. They accept this and carry on their duty. Anyone that does devolve into a Wulfen is executed so they don't exactly tolerate it.
Horus tricked Russ into attacking Prospero considering Russ then rushed to aid the Emperor at Terra i doubt he was willing.

- The edict covered psykers. And most of the other legions disbanded their librarian programs, or at least kept them secret. Not Russ. However, I don't think that there's really that much difference between Psykers and Sorcerers. If there is, the fluff never makes it clear.

- The SW gene seed is no worse than that of the Thousand Sons, as they both create a flesh change. But both are caused by the Warp interfering with the marine.

- Russ was willing to attack other Astartes, that much is clear. Whether he was willing to betray the Emperor is another question. I think that the evidence shows that Russ was corrupted by Chaos, but refused to side with Horus when the time came to switch. Whether this was out of loyalty to the Emperor (unlikely) or because of some other threat or benefit is still undecided.