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As the title says, when is a Land Raider worth it's points? Specifically, I'm building a Pure Witchhunters Army, and a Land Raider provides an alternative to the Exorcist for non-infantry anti-tank options, PLUS it has transport capacity. But at 250, it's fairly expensive. Is it worth it?

More generally, What about Space Marines and Land Raiders, are they any more economical there?

I mostly run lists between 1k and 1500, so understandably 250pts is quite a bit.

land raiders are useful when you want an assault transport, IE you want to drive up and assault.
They become more worthwhile if you have assault terminators, as those can only be transported inside a land raider.

They then become even more powerful if your enemy does not have anything that can breach AV14.

They have a place, but they come in pairs so 500P. The best aplication was recently by a GK player who used a Vindicare too kill AV14 anti tank and effectively used the LRs as a barrier but the combo is 645P so its not cheap.

250pts isn't cheap but if its the 250pts that win the game then its a worthy call.

When facing land raiders they usually take a high priority on my list of targets. If they have terminators or a command unit in them i'm more inclined to shoot them than a rhino with a tactical squad in them. It's the rhino that arrives pouring space marines out which slowly but surely rip my guardsman limb from limb...

On a related note, how are Land Raiders at Tank-Busting? Particularly vs. Exorcists and Leman Russ Battle Tanks?

DMajiko wrote:On a related note, how are Land Raiders at Tank-Busting? Particularly vs. Exorcists and Leman Russ Battle Tanks?

2 las cannons is hardly a tank buster at 250 pts

the ones with multi meltas or assault cannons are slightly better but not much.

Witch Hunters only get the regular kind and only as a transport option for an Inquisitor.

For the Inquisition I think the Exorcist or ISTs with meltas would be better to bust tanks. The LR is an assualt vehicle 1st. The lascannons just give it something to do once the cargo has been unleashed.

Yeah, I'm really not seeing the LR as a good alternative to the Exorcist for AT . . .

The basic landraider pays a lot for two lascannons, and pays a lot for be able to safely transport an assault squad with an assault ramp.

Which means in every game, you're paying points for somethign it's not doing.

SM landraiders can still move and shoot at least one weapon, and so funciton better at both roles.

I find when I use a LRR it tends to make up for its points every time at about 1750-2500.

Don't really know if I would take it below that though, maybe 1500.

Depends which variant you're fielding, and whether or not you have bought a multimelta on top. Ignoring FW stuff, standard is obviously the best for anti-tank, the Crusader is capable as well but more suited for anti-infantry, and the Redeemer is lacking. Of course, like I said, if you buy them a multimelta then they can all destroy a tank.

Andilus Greatsword wrote:Depends which variant you're fielding, and whether or not you have bought a multimelta on top. Ignoring FW stuff, standard is obviously the best for anti-tank, the Crusader is capable as well but more suited for anti-infantry, and the Redeemer is lacking. Of course, like I said, if you buy them a multimelta then they can all destroy a tank.

With the ease of getting cover saves in 5th, I don't understand how the redeemer is lacking.

I find it tends to kill much more than my crusader.

daedalus-templarius wrote:
With the ease of getting cover saves in 5th, I don't understand how the redeemer is lacking.

I find it tends to kill much more than my crusader.

the very short range being the first, and lacking the ability to hit the same target with both flamers on a regular basis. yes str6 ap3, ignoring cover is very nice, but being unable to hit the same target really cripples the ability of the weapons.

I have just found Crusaders to do better than the Redeemers. in the games I have played, LRCs have claimed the Avatar of Khaine(with Hurricane Bolters at 12"), ran over that named Bloodthirsters(guy tried to death or glory the tank), and then in the same list I had one just boss around a Trevigon closer into its guants, and killing, shattering that side of the push for the nids. the only reason I haven't taken them to the board lately is all the DEs bouncing around, all those Dark Lances make Landraiders of any flavor unhappy customers. though of course Black Templar Land Riaders with blessed hulls wouldn't be a bad option either to prepare for such a thing.

Land Raider: Can be a good [not great] Tank Hunter. You have the Ability to move 6" and fire 2 TL-LC at two difrent targets and you can put a Multi-Melta on it.
-No Movement: Fire the 2 LC at the Tank across the Board and the Multi-Melta vs the Tank Next to you.
The LRR: Great Anti-Infantry Package, but you will have problems firing everything in one turn even without adding Weapons.
The LRC: IMO one of the better deals and it can make a good Tank Hunter. You can load it up with the Multi-Melta and a Stprm Bolter, Move and Fire Everything.

LRR/LRC: The AC/MM combo will make most armor respect it if not fear it.
I even have a tendancy to put HK Missile on board for that opening volley vs Vehicls and MCs

Andilus Greatsword wrote:Depends which variant you're fielding, and whether or not you have bought a multimelta on top.

Unfortunately, the only variant WH get is the basic, 2 TL Lascannons, 1 TL Heavy Bolter. No pintles, no nothing. The errata does however give the Machine Spirit rule though, so move and shoot is possible.

I love my Land Raider.

I run the Phobos Pattern with a multi-melta, extra armor and I fill it with assault Terminators. Since I use Vulkan the Multi-Melta is twin-linked, so that's nice too.

I'm not sure if I'd use it for witch hunters though. What are you thinking about putting in it?

Garuss Acine wrote:

daedalus-templarius wrote:
With the ease of getting cover saves in 5th, I don't understand how the redeemer is lacking.

I find it tends to kill much more than my crusader.

the very short range being the first, and lacking the ability to hit the same target with both flamers on a regular basis. yes str6 ap3, ignoring cover is very nice, but being unable to hit the same target really cripples the ability of the weapons.

I have just found Crusaders to do better than the Redeemers. in the games I have played, LRCs have claimed the Avatar of Khaine(with Hurricane Bolters at 12"), ran over that named Bloodthirsters(guy tried to death or glory the tank), and then in the same list I had one just boss around a Trevigon closer into its guants, and killing, shattering that side of the push for the nids. the only reason I haven't taken them to the board lately is all the DEs bouncing around, all those Dark Lances make Landraiders of any flavor unhappy customers. though of course Black Templar Land Riaders with blessed hulls wouldn't be a bad option either to prepare for such a thing.

I guess I just haven't had much luck with the hurricane bolters, even if they can fire all the time. I mean, its 6 TL shots per side, if you rapid fire them, correct? Even then, S4 AP5 just doesn't seem to reliably wound anything but the weakest of opponents outside of cover.

Monster Rain wrote:What are you thinking about putting in it?

That would be the question, wouldn't it? My Inquisitor and his retinue (which can have up to 7 power weapons, 1 at WS5, 3 at WS4, 3 at WS3; all at S3) can start in it, but not very killy, are they? My other choice is... oh wait, that is my killy-est unit I can mount up (Repentia and Arco-Flagelants not being able to be mounted).

hmm... just had a thought... I can take 2 elite inquisitors (the third slot is taken up by a Vindicare) and add them to my retinue, them being IC and all...

Yeah, that's not quite badass enough to rate a Land Raider in my opinion.

DMajiko wrote:

Andilus Greatsword wrote:Depends which variant you're fielding, and whether or not you have bought a multimelta on top.

Unfortunately, the only variant WH get is the basic, 2 TL Lascannons, 1 TL Heavy Bolter. No pintles, no nothing. The errata does however give the Machine Spirit rule though, so move and shoot is possible.

it gives it the BS 2 machine spirit rule...

Honestly your best option is not a LR... its celestians in an immolator with two melta guns....

Hardly ever, I've found. Then again, I play the crappy non-POTMS Chaos ones

It depends, I think. Throwing a bunch of terminators with assault stuff inside one and popping out late-game can be devastating, especially when it's the Flamer-version one (redeemer?). But as for earning the points back... I don't know. They usually don't earn 500 points worth of stuff.

DMajiko wrote:

Monster Rain wrote:What are you thinking about putting in it?

That would be the question, wouldn't it? My Inquisitor and his retinue (which can have up to 7 power weapons, 1 at WS5, 3 at WS4, 3 at WS3; all at S3) can start in it, but not very killy, are they? My other choice is... oh wait, that is my killy-est unit I can mount up (Repentia and Arco-Flagelants not being able to be mounted).

hmm... just had a thought... I can take 2 elite inquisitors (the third slot is taken up by a Vindicare) and add them to my retinue, them being IC and all...

If WH dedicated transports work the same as DH did, they only the unit that bought the transport can ride in it. Since the codecies were from old editions, they spelled this out explicitly, and therefore aren't changed by the advent of 5th edition. At least, I believe that's the INAT ruling on the old DH dedicated transports.

Land Raiders seem to me to only be useful for transporting assault troops. Anything else is secondary. When I see them across the table, I consider two options: take it out turn one or ignore it and get ready to deal with the contents. What that means for the LR player is that the rest of their army has to make up for the fact that you're basically buying 12" or 24" of movement for 250 points. After that, you can get advanced and use it for LOS and movement blocking, but the #1 role is delivery.

When determining if a unit is worth it's points there are several ways of looking at it.

1. Can it kill as many points as it cost? In the case of the Landraider can it destroy ( or reliably destroy 250pts worth of your opponents toys) There is a lot of things to consider with this. The most important is what is the other guy bringing. If you are using a 2TL Lascannon version against an all footslogging Ork Horde, it will not make up it's points, but against a Mech List it could make up it's points.

2. Can it perform it's roll? If you are using it to transport a slow moving hard hitting assault squad you do not want to get shot up then it might be worth it's points. Of course it depends on your opponent. A Dark Lance heavy Dark Eldar list can pop it turn one and that unit is running accross the board and you wasted 250pts.

3. They way I determine if it is worth the points is I look at 1 & 2, but then I add a 3rd. When the opponent shots at it, what are they NOT shotting at? In a 2000pt game, I field a Landraider and a squad inside, and my opponent spends his first turn shooting at it, and ignoring the rest of my list I think that is a good thing. And can be worth the points.

I actually disagree with the whole "they have to come in pairs" thing. I do very well with just the one, but then my first priority for my Sternguard and other Melta-toting drop pod units is things that can hurt it reliably.

I'll have to say that I usually like seeing my opponent put down a Land Raider against my Hybrid IG list. I have three units capable of a melta alpha-strike, and I can set up to handle just about any cargo that may come out. Only about 10% of the time does a Land Raider live past turn 1 (if I go first, I usually ignore them otherwise). Basically, I haven't seen one yet that wasn't a waste of too many points.

Once you take out the things that can take them out, a LR is a terrifying sight to behold.

The problem with the land raider is the problem with all transports. It does very little on its own. In the case of things like rhinos and chimeras, at least, this points sink is pretty low, but when you're talking about a raider, you can really see the opportunity cost of transports.

Because, really, a raider gives you a somewhat safer 2nd turn assault with choppy units. Compare that to spending 250 more points on more dudes. Which unit will probably have more terminators on turn 2, 5 termies and a raider or 10 termies?

Plus, you don't have to throw away an extra kill point.

As for the guns, they only exist as a way of making a land raider not TOTALLY useless if it gets immobilized. Talking about their guns as anything other than insurance is a terrible waste.

Yeah, a multimelta and TL assault cannons are terrible. /boggle

Despite Ailaros's constant claims that transports are not good, there is a reason that 40k is currently dominated by transport heavy armies - they allow you to exert control on the board will putting out some firepower.

Sure, the 10 terminator strong unit would likely still have more models turn 2, but the problem is that your 5 man terminator squad can catch other units whereas the footslogging unit has to chase as far as the opponent can run to catch them. The transported terminator unit will likely spend more of its time in CC than one without a transport - effectively wasting points for each turn the assault unit is not in assault.

Don't get me wrong, a LR is not a requirement at all. There are plenty of armies that do fine without them. But denouncing transports in general as point-sinks is backwards. Is there an opportunity cost? Certainly. Everything has an opportunity cost. When used well the LR is a wise investement.

A LR is worth it if it is transporting something extremely valuable.

For example, if you are playing CSM and take Abbadon he *needs* a LR. Otherwise he won't ever get into close combat.

Land Raiders are worth there points when they deliver a squad of assault Termies into the heart of the enemy formation. They are really an assault platform for a dedicated CC unit. I would not use them as a battle tank, as there are cheaper, more effective units to use in that way.If you are looking for a long range anti-tank option I would go with the Exorcist.