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What army is better in close combat GK or BA

I'm going to go with grey knights...a bit pricier, but force weapons, hammerhand and quicksilver give them the edge. Not to mention paladins with the better weapon skill.

Yeah I see what you mean but the BA have sanguinary gard and death company plus they have all the characters.

GK are better versus Meq in melee (except Purifiers.. they kill everything!) and BA are generally better versus hordes with the majority of their units (Assault Squads, DC etc).

Nonetheless, BA can easily kill Meq, but with different units.

It's hard to do a full-on comparison, you'd have to go unit-by-unit.

I'd say BA. Grey knights are good but they aren't dedicated melee fighters and will succumb to most dedicated melee units.

Ok then who would win 5 sanguinary with mephiston or 5 paladins and kaldor?

GeckoOBac wrote:I'd say BA. Grey knights are good but they aren't dedicated melee fighters and will succumb to most dedicated melee units.

Don't forget that the GK's can almost always unleash 10-20+ shots before charging.

Kaskrin123 wrote:Ok then who would win 5 sanguinary with mephiston or 5 paladins and kaldor?

Kaldor and Paladins, considering that the GKs have the Invulnerable saves and whatnot. Mephiston isn't EW, so the Force Weapons will eat him. Not to mention that Paladins have a far superior statline/equipment to Sanguinary Guard..

Probably the sanguinary guard, though I'm judging by eye. Anyway bear in mind that even comparing bare squads, the paladin + draigo squad costs 100 more points.


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Darkvoidof40k wrote:
Don't forget that the GK's can almost always unleash 10-20+ shots before charging.

That's hardly close combat though =)

Kaskrin123 wrote:Not to mention that Paladins have a far superior statline/equipment to Sanguinary Guard..

Erm no? 1 wound + 1ws. And termi armour vs jump packs, that's it. Paladins also cost 37.5% more.

GeckoOBac wrote:Probably the sanguinary guard, though I'm judging by eye. Anyway bear in mind that even comparing bare squads, the paladin + draigo squad costs 100 more points.

Sanguinary Guard? Really? No invulnerable save, one less wound and weapon skill.. not to mention Nemesis Force Weapon diversity; Halberds would eat the Guard alive with I6.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

GeckoOBac wrote:Probably the sanguinary guard, though I'm judging by eye. Anyway bear in mind that even comparing bare squads, the paladin + draigo squad costs 100 more points.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Darkvoidof40k wrote:
Don't forget that the GK's can almost always unleash 10-20+ shots before charging.

That's hardly close combat though =)

Kaskrin123 wrote:Not to mention that Paladins have a far superior statline/equipment to Sanguinary Guard..

Erm no? 1 wound + 1ws. And termi armour vs jump packs, that's it. Paladins also cost 37.5% more.

Nope, it sure isn't.. but it means there's a lot less left to beat up in melee, so they're far more likely to win.

And you beat me to it with Kaskrin's comment!

Darkvoidof40k wrote:

GeckoOBac wrote:Probably the sanguinary guard, though I'm judging by eye. Anyway bear in mind that even comparing bare squads, the paladin + draigo squad costs 100 more points.

Sanguinary Guard? Really? No invulnerable save, one less wound and weapon skill.. not to mention Nemesis Force Weapon diversity; Halberds would eat the Guard alive with I6.

5+ invuln save isn't that great, though it can help. Sanguinary guard will most probably gain the charge though, and mephiston has a force weapon at i7, so the paladins are possibly fried, especially since they may get reduced to ws1 due to the sang guard equipment. They may get preferred enemy due to another power from mephiston. So, imho the sang guard has a good chance to win this, but like I said I'm judging by eye, we'd need some mathammer to settle this.

But anyway, EVEN if the paladins win, they still cost AT LEAST 100 more points.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Darkvoidof40k wrote:

GeckoOBac wrote:

Darkvoidof40k wrote:
Don't forget that the GK's can almost always unleash 10-20+ shots before charging.

That's hardly close combat though =)

Nope, it sure isn't.. but it means there's a lot less left to beat up in melee, so they're far more likely to win.

Well the sang guard has got assault 2 boltguns with 12" range... less range I know, but they have jump packs to compensate for that anyway.

Paladins win. Mephiston won't like psyk-out grenades at all...

Too bad mephy is striking at I1 thanks to Psyk-out grenades.

Also, you really don't want to get a Psyker into CC with draigo. Mastercrafted S10 sword with daemonbane.

Also, you can probably allocate most of whatever power weapon wounds get through to Draigo so he can save them like a champ with his 3++.

Grey Knights basically own anything without an invulnerable save, or hordes.

Power weapons at high Initiative will just gut any power armor.

Hm yeah I forgot the psykout grenades... Ah well, I guess somebody needs to do some math hammer to be sure.

GeckoOBac wrote:

Darkvoidof40k wrote:

GeckoOBac wrote:Probably the sanguinary guard, though I'm judging by eye. Anyway bear in mind that even comparing bare squads, the paladin + draigo squad costs 100 more points.

Sanguinary Guard? Really? No invulnerable save, one less wound and weapon skill.. not to mention Nemesis Force Weapon diversity; Halberds would eat the Guard alive with I6.

5+ invuln save isn't that great, though it can help. Sanguinary guard will most probably gain the charge though, and mephiston has a force weapon at i7, so the paladins are possibly fried, especially since they may get reduced to ws1 due to the sang guard equipment. They may get preferred enemy due to another power from mephiston. So, imho the sang guard has a good chance to win this, but like I said I'm judging by eye, we'd need some mathammer to settle this.

But anyway, EVEN if the paladins win, they still cost AT LEAST 100 more points.

4++ with Swords, which are the standard, which is a good invulnerable save.

Even if they cost 100 more points, that is for a reason, namely the fact that they can walk through several squads of anything, especially elite MSU Meq's.

Darkvoidof40k wrote:

GeckoOBac wrote:

Darkvoidof40k wrote:

GeckoOBac wrote:Probably the sanguinary guard, though I'm judging by eye. Anyway bear in mind that even comparing bare squads, the paladin + draigo squad costs 100 more points.

Sanguinary Guard? Really? No invulnerable save, one less wound and weapon skill.. not to mention Nemesis Force Weapon diversity; Halberds would eat the Guard alive with I6.

5+ invuln save isn't that great, though it can help. Sanguinary guard will most probably gain the charge though, and mephiston has a force weapon at i7, so the paladins are possibly fried, especially since they may get reduced to ws1 due to the sang guard equipment. They may get preferred enemy due to another power from mephiston. So, imho the sang guard has a good chance to win this, but like I said I'm judging by eye, we'd need some mathammer to settle this.

But anyway, EVEN if the paladins win, they still cost AT LEAST 100 more points.

4++ with Swords, which are the standard, which is a good invulnerable save.

Even if they cost 100 more points, that is for a reason, namely the fact that they can walk through several squads of anything, especially elite MSU Meq's.

Well it's in CC and almost nobody will keep the swords. And I'm still not so sure about the second part... I mean, model per model? Probably yes. Point per point? Think not, especially if said meq pack any kind of plasma/melta weapons (which I admit don't matter for the purposes of this thread, but still...)

Actually, most Terminator/Paladin squads tend to have at least one NFS for wound-allocation shenanigans.

But lets take a look at how many models you'd get, without upgrades.

10 Paladins = 550 Points
550 Points = ~13 Sanguinary Guard (obviously, not legal)
15 Sanguinary Guard = 600 Points

So, if we add on a nice helping of upgrades, including Draigo/Mephiston..

10 Paladins + Draigo + a helping of upgrades= ~1000 Points
15 Sanguinary Guard + Mephiston + a helping of upgrades = ~990-1000 Points

Outcome? Victory for the Knights.

Edit: Not kidding. All those Halberds + Banner if taken will destroy the Guard before they even strike, and Mephiston can't give Preferred Enemy to the Guard as he isn't attached. Draigo will eat him.

Don't forget about the deathcult assassins, 15 points for 3 pw attacks at ws 5 str 4 int 6 is insane.

my vote is for Blood angels. the examples used above are pretty terrible.....for blood angels dont really use those guys as their dedicated assualts...they use assualt marines, or vangaurd vets, or Death compony...


Really Grey knights are nice, but what happens when a Death compony Dreadnaught walks into that unit with blood fists? with a unit of deathcompony? Paladins take massive amounts of dmg i dont care how many wounds they have. now put a chaplain in there...OH SNAP!


Sooo instead of sang gaurd lets use what they REALLY would use. a chappy leading death compony. Full rerolls on attacks and wounds going first with 4 attacks each i dont care what kind of saves the GK have, its all about the numbers

Nightrave wrote:my vote is for Blood angels. the examples used above are pretty terrible.....for blood angels dont really use those guys as their dedicated assualts...they use assualt marines, or vangaurd vets, or Death compony...


Really Grey knights are nice, but what happens when a Death compony Dreadnaught walks into that unit with blood fists? with a unit of deathcompony? Paladins take massive amounts of dmg i dont care how many wounds they have. now put a chaplain in there...OH SNAP!


Sooo instead of sang gaurd lets use what they REALLY would use. a chappy leading death compony. Full rerolls on attacks and wounds going first with 4 attacks each i dont care what kind of saves the GK have, its all about the numbers

2+ and FnP usually. A few 4++ and a 2++ thrown in there for good measure as well.

Nightrave wrote:my vote is for Blood angels. the examples used above are pretty terrible.....for blood angels dont really use those guys as their dedicated assualts...they use assualt marines, or vangaurd vets, or Death compony...


Really Grey knights are nice, but what happens when a Death compony Dreadnaught walks into that unit with blood fists? with a unit of deathcompony? Paladins take massive amounts of dmg i dont care how many wounds they have. now put a chaplain in there...OH SNAP!


Sooo instead of sang gaurd lets use what they REALLY would use. a chappy leading death compony. Full rerolls on attacks and wounds going first with 4 attacks each i dont care what kind of saves the GK have, its all about the numbers

I started Gray Knights, and a good friend of mine has been playing Bloodangels for a long time. So I'm speaking from experience.
First, Paladins will eat anything BloodAngels...Death Company, assault marines, vanguard vets. You ask what happens when a Death Company Dread walks up? Well, it gets eaten. Paladins will have a daemon hammer. They can up their strength by 2 between draigo and the unit. And paladins will go first, even if they get charged.

You want to throw in a chaplain? Hey, that's fine, because I want to throw in a librarian. You can take your re-rolls on hits and wounds, and I'll take initiative 10 and +2 more strength. It's not who will win...it's will BA even have a chance to swing back?

Hmmm, isn't it more likely to be Dante and sang guard? Since meph isn't an IC I think. And it's hardly a realistic scenario to just assume that both units start in CC without actually getting there. Dante and the sang guard could deep strike right next to the pallys and blast them with infernus pistols negating their 2+ save and 2 wounds and any FNP they may have. Then receive the charge but dante strikes at I6, too with 4 attacks and a superior WS.

If the pallys managed to get the charge after shooting 8 psycannon shots and some storm bolters, then they'd own Dante and his sang guard. I think that any match up with sang guard Vs pallys is all about who gets to attack first. not just in CC, I'm talking the whole move shoot and assault thing. But I do believe that the pallys are better equipped to take a charge.

Experince,

750 point game.

My 10 termis wiped out everything the BA player had during turn 3 without losing anything.

halberds give initialtive 6 and power/force weapons will ignore the FNP.

Don't forget termis are troops, I don't think any troops in BA can beat a squad of termis.

15 Assualt marines (420 points) vs 10 termis (400 points).

I don't even need to say how this will turn out.

Blood angels will need to make use of their unit synergy to deal with many grey knight units toe to toe.
A unit of 5 paladins vs a full unit of assault marines w/ 2 meltaguns and a fist? If you take advantage of the assault marines superior movement, you can leap from los blocking terrain (or from behind a vehicle) blow the meltas in their face, likely killing 1 flat out, and then in the ensuing assault, lose your average of two guys if they have all halberds, then return hits, possibly cause a couple wounds with the bare guys, then have your fist eat up one or two paladins.

Blood angels have a superior storm raven, which can strand gk units by bursting their transports with missiles while remaining out of psyflemen dread range. Drop in a furioso to assault nearly any gk infantry unit and you will come out on top- or throw them against their vaunted dreads and laugh as their str 6 dreads cant even scratch yours' paint.

The force weapons are icing on the cake for most GK units, their real fearsomeness is from their mid range shooting prowess.

Slick wrote:The force weapons are icing on the cake for most GK units, their real fearsomeness is from their mid range shooting prowess.

This. GKs are not bad in close combat, but they're not dedicated CC fighters. What they have is overwhelming mid range firepower with excellent mobility. What they can't kill straight on in melee, they gun down first and butcher later. What they can't outshoot, they charge. But, as the thread requested, I'd say that considering just CC, BAs are better overall, and more CC oriented anyway.

As much as I like BA, they would get stomped by a dedicated GK melee player, way too many power weapons.

I have to say imho GK would take the win but I'm sure the Sanguinary guard would put up a noble fight.

Bloodfrenzy187 wrote:I have to say imho GK would take the win but I'm sure the Sanguinary guard would put up a noble fight. [read: die horribly]

With alot of upgrades GK will have alot of high powered weapons. For BA to assualt the GK, they will have to be in range of thier psycannon and a competitive list will have about 25 shots after moving. Rhino 12 inch psycannon 24 inch. That should put alot things in range considering BA would prefer melée so they will be set up as close to the enermy as possiable. If not the GK can sit an wait and fire up to 52 psycannon shots.

Any transport will be blown to bits and it's not hammer will do the rest. Also the dreads with psybolt, S8 should take just about everything on the board.

However, I do believe tyranids will win in CC lol, (small and elite force)

Marthike wrote:However, I do believe tyranids will win in CC lol, (small and elite force)

Two words. Cleansing. Flame.