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We all know we roll d6 and add the result to the strength of the firing weapon when working out vehicle glancing/penetrating hits. That d6 is the standard, meaning we will always roll it. It is not referred to as an "extra" die. I believe the 4d6 for the turbo penetrator's armour penetration roll, and any d3 for rending results, while excessive (who needs the 19-36 and for what?), are standard. My reasoning? RAW.

Melta Weapons: Verbatim from the BRB "...they roll an EXTRA d6..."
Rending Weapons: Verbatim from the BRB "...allows a FURTHER d3 to be rolled..." (same wording for ranged and close-combat weapons)
Sniper Weapons: Verbatim from the BRB "...all sniper weapons are also rending and pinning weapons..." and "Against vehicles, sniper weapons count as strength 3, which, combined with the rending rule..."
Turbo-Penetrator: Verbatim from the Grey Knights codex "The turbo-penetrator has an Armour Penetration of 4d6."
Monstrous Creatures: Verbatim from the BRB "...monstrous creatures roll an ADDITIONAL d6..."
Chain Fist (Blood Angels codex) Verbatim "...rolls an ADDITIONAL d6..."
Chainfist (Space Marines codex) Verbatim "...rolls 2d6 for its armour penetration..."

Thus, any rules that are worded "...do not get the EXTRA dice..." (such as found in the Necron codex) would include (per verbatim) melta weapons, and any other categories SPECIFICALLY mentioned in the same rule (IE: Monstrous Creatures and Chainfists).

Is this how I actually play? No.

EDIT: @ insaniak- I wasn't led to believe this was a questioning forum. The header of this sub-forum asks if I want to participate in rules interpretations. I do, so I am throwing in the first bone. In doing so I have already learned something new. I do not own an Eldar codex, and was not familiar with the Wave Serpent rule provided by Grey Templar.

EDIT: @ Grey Templar- Does it actually say "...never roll more than 1D6 for armor penetration..." with regard to the Wave Serpent? Because rending dice are d3s, which means I can roll as many of those as I have rending results.

EDIT: @ Dash- "Armour penetration in 40k is the strength of a weapon + 1d6." I rather think armour penetration is whatever the rules say it is in any given example, and GW games designers/codex writers need to have their rulebooks and codex libraries closer to hand than we do.

the way it works is this.

you take your Str of 3, add 4D6 to it, add an additional D3 for every 6 rolled by the 4D6, and add the total.


this gives a possable range from 7-36 with an Mode of 17.


the Monolith's effect is up in the air as far as RAW goes. the RAI is also unclear as they rules the Vindicare still got his dice against it last time.

I do think the Vindicare getting the dice against a monolith is against the spirit of the necron rules.


the Vindicare will certaintly never get his 4D6 against a Wave serpant because that says you never roll more then 1D6 for armor penetration(not even rending)

I'm confused. What is the question here?

The Lith's rules also say (in the latest edition of the codex, printed somewhere between illuminated manuscripts and wooly mammoths still wandering the British Isles) that you only get 1d6 plus str, no matter what.

This one comes up again and again and again...

It'll hopefully get put to bed with the new codex. I should be so lucky..

OP, this has been discussed to death already.

It comes down to this. Armour penetration in 40k is the strength of a weapon + 1d6.

STR + 1D6

STR + 1D6

Repeat that.

Various things in 40k let you gain extra dice beyond STR + 1D6. It doesn't matter if the words in the rule say "extra, additional, supplemental, +3, 4D6, secondary, waffles, further, etc" they are ALL extra dice beyond STR + 1D6.

GT, not that it matters, but it maxes out at 39. ST 3 + 4d6 (24) + possible 4d3 (12) = 39.

Ascalam wrote:The Lith's rules also say (in the latest edition of the codex, printed somewhere between illuminated manuscripts and wooly mammoths still wandering the British Isles) that you only get 1d6 plus str, no matter what.

This.

A thousand times this.

commissarkurn wrote:Turbo-Penetrator: Verbatim from the Grey Knights codex "The turbo-penetrator has an Armour Penetration of 4d6."

IF the question was "what happens when a turbo penetrator shoots a monolith" I would agree with the op (I think) and say it gets 4D6. There are no extra dice it's really clear cut, its AP is 4D6.

LOL, I remember this debate in an older incarnation, where it was argued that as the monolith doesn't allow bonuses, so power gloves would be S4, as the bonus penetration from the doubling S doesn't apply. Ironically no one agreed with that, but for some reason, it seems people think the turbo P WONT work, even though it's the same way. The argument went, "a power fist doubles the models St so it is now 8 so there is no bonus", this is the same, the TP has an AP of 4D6, there is no bonus, it's unique!

Also, codex rules trump base rules, and newly published material supersedes older material.

4D6 I say!

Besides a new Necron Codex is coming anyway, and a Grey Knights army would so kill necrons in CC that this is just academic right?


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somerandomdude wrote:

Ascalam wrote:...you only get 1d6 plus str, no matter what.

This.

A thousand times this.

ORLY?

Except for power fists right? Uh huh... and power claws, and thunder hammers, and chain fists and all unique cases...

I don't think "no matter what" is actually what the rules say either...

Augustus wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:

somerandomdude wrote:

Ascalam wrote:...you only get 1d6 plus str, no matter what.

This.

A thousand times this.

ORLY?

Except for power fists right? Uh huh... and power claws, and thunder hammers, and chain fists and all unique cases...

I don't think "no matter what" is actually what the rules say either...

YARLY

In every single example you listed, they get str of the weapon (which is the user's strx2 on the power fist, hammer, and chainfist) + 1d6 for AP, just like the rule says. There is no exception there.

And yes, in the most recent printing the rule really does say "no matter what".

Most recent printing uses this phrase

"In practice, any weapon attacking the Monolith will roll for armour penetration using its unaugmented strength and a single D6 no matter what."

The argument that tends to follow this is that the 4D6 is the strength of the shot (not agreeing with this, merely posting it for completeness)

Do a search and you will see the countless threads that have debated this issue, none of which have brought the player base any closer to a concensus.

Maelstrom808 wrote:

Augustus wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:

somerandomdude wrote:

Ascalam wrote:...you only get 1d6 plus str, no matter what.

This.

A thousand times this.

ORLY?

Except for power fists right? Uh huh... and power claws, and thunder hammers, and chain fists and all unique cases...

I don't think "no matter what" is actually what the rules say either...

YARLY

In every single example you listed, they get str of the weapon (which is the user's strx2 on the power fist, hammer, and chainfist) + 1d6 for AP, just like the rule says. There is no exception there.

And yes, in the most recent printing the rule really does say "no matter what".

ROFL +1 right there. Total fail for poor Augustus

Un-augmented strength is 4 for all those weapons.

So its one way for doubling and another for the Turbo Penetrator dice?

That's just inconsistent, it has to be wrong on one side or the other.

Since the doubling weapons get their bonus as a str bonus then the turbo P gets it as well on the same basis.

Augustus - wrong.

The unaugmented strength of a powerfist is (2xUser)

Augustus wrote:Un-augmented strength is 4 for all those weapons.

So its one way for doubling and another for the Turbo Penetrator dice?

That's just inconsistent, it has to be wrong on one side or the other.

Since the doubling weapons get their bonus as a str bonus then the turbo P gets it as well on the same basis.

Not at all. S4 is the str of the marine. This is then doubled by the powerfist and becomes S8 for the weapon (the powerfist). So the model's str is modified, but the weapon's is not. This is GWs reasoning for the ruling. I don't agree with it, but there it is. Anyway, this means nothing for the TP round as depending on which way you think it works, the TP has a str of 3 for being a sniper weapon, or it has no str at all if the TP round completely overwrites the sniper rule, which there is no indication it does. Even if the TP overwrites the sniper rule, the 4d6 is never mentioned as being it's str, which means it's S3 (or S0) + 4D6...which is a no no for the living metal rules.


Regardless, as Lehnsherr said, this has been argued to death already in several other threads. Until a FAQ comes out, if you and your opponent can't come to a reasonable agreement on it, or are simply unwilling to roll off on it, find someone else to play in the meantime.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Augustus - wrong.

The unaugmented strength of a powerfist is (2xUser)

Actually a powerfist by itself doesn't have a strength, it's undefined. So by a technical reading, its a nothing, until it gets augmented by 2x User S.

Most recent printing uses this phrase

"In practice, any weapon attacking the Monolith will roll for armour penetration using its unaugmented strength and a single D6 no matter what."

For the record, I play the doubled str. I'm just trying to point out that by the same logic, the TP gets 4D6, as that's it's AP/strength strait out of it's special rule.

No, the powerfist has 2x(user strength)

It is a completely defined Strength, with a variable value.

It does NOT mean that the value is augmented, which is your argument.

Augustus wrote:

For the record, I play the doubled str. I'm just trying to point out that by the same logic, the TP gets 4D6, as that's it's AP/strength strait out of it's special rule.

Well, I'm glad you play the doubled strength because that is in the FAQ's and is in accordance to the rules as to what was defined as base strength vs augmented strength.

Since the TP round doesn't follow the same guidelines, it is NOT logical at all to include it because of powerfists etc.

The only thing you could really argue is that since the old turbo round from 4th edition was faq'ed and allowed to work, the new one should too. However, seeing as how that was from 2 different codexs, 2 faq's, and a previous edition... even this argument doesn't really hold up.

Eviscerators in the Witch Hunter codex (I believe) state that they have 2d6 penetration, and they are not called out by Living Metal. Should we believe that they also circumvent it? No.

Unaugmented Strength plus 1d6 is the same rule every weapon must follow.

Eviscerators are chainfists. It even says that they work just like them if i remember correctly

The main reason that powerfists and so on are allowed to work vs the monolith (besuides the RAW of undefined strength) is this:

What else can an ork player use to kill it (especially before deffrollas came down the pike

That and the whiny plate armour crowd who also like to punch flying castles to death

Some fricken' consistency on GW's part would go a long way, but it'll all be academic soon anyway..

Armor penetration is defined in the rulebook as Str + 1d6.

The rules in the codex grey knights explicitly states the turbo pen round has an armour penentration of 4d6.

The rules conflict with each other, as the S + 1d6 is not the same as 4d6. Since the codex entry is more specific (it applies to a single weapon), it replaces the normal rules.

The turbo penetration round always has armor penetration of 4d6. None of these dice are in any way extra, they are what the weapon normally gets when using this firing mode.

Therefore against Monolith and everything else, the Turbo pen round has an Armor Penetration of 4d6. Nothing more, nothing less.

edit: This is what RAW says anyways. The WH codex has an FAQ for a different weapon with the same name, which some would apply to this weapon. Its applicability is debatable.

Dracos wrote:Armor penetration is defined in the rulebook as Str + 1d6.

The rules in the codex grey knights explicitly states the turbo pen round has an armour penentration of 4d6.

The rules conflict with each other, as the S + 1d6 is not the same as 4d6. Since the codex entry is more specific (it applies to a single weapon), it replaces the normal rules.

The turbo penetration round always has armor penetration of 4d6. None of these dice are in any way extra, they are what the weapon normally gets when using this firing mode.

Therefore against Monolith and everything else, the Turbo pen round has an Armor Penetration of 4d6. Nothing more, nothing less.

edit: This is what RAW says anyways. The WH codex has an FAQ for a different weapon with the same name, which some would apply to this weapon. Its applicability is debatable.

Uh...you're mixing up your specific > general here.

Grey Knight Codex: Turbo-Penetrator has 4D6 armour penetration. IE, STR + 4D6.

Living Armour: Only a single D6 of armour penetration may be used.

Turbo-penetrator is a general rule outline how it will penetrate vehicles.
Living armour is a specific exception to that general rule.

You get 4D6 armour penetration against all vehicles - unless a vehicle specifically prohibits you from doing so. There's one vehicle in the game that does that.

Ascalam wrote:Eviscerators are chainfists. It even says that they work just like them if i remember correctly

No and no.

Eviscerators are chainswords.

It has the same general text as a Chainfist, but it doesn't make any reference to them.

If a WH player pulled out his Codex, which says 2d6, and used it against a Monolith, why can't he get 2d6 while a Turbo-Penetrator gets 4d6?

The answer: The Turbo-Penetrator doesn't get 4d6, because the Monolith says weapons never roll more than 1d6.

How many times does that sentence need to be stated, and how many times will it be ignored?

somerandomdude wrote:

Ascalam wrote:Eviscerators are chainfists. It even says that they work just like them if i remember correctly

No and no.

Eviscerators are chainswords.

It has the same general text as a Chainfist, but it doesn't make any reference to them.

If a WH player pulled out his Codex, which says 2d6, and used it against a Monolith, why can't he get 2d6 while a Turbo-Penetrator gets 4d6?

The answer: The Turbo-Penetrator doesn't get 4d6, because the Monolith says weapons never roll more than 1d6.

How many times does that sentence need to be stated, and how many times will it be ignored?

My mistake. They aren't chainfists at all, just chainswords with a rule that they act as powerfists that roll 2d6 for armour pen (just like chainfists). Nothing chainfistish there at all..




If you'll look up-thread i stated that rule too I got accused of lying on the 'no matter what issue, then vindicated .




Automatically Appended Next Post:
*addendum: *

Knew i saw it somewhere. The Daemonhunters codex refers to it as a chainfist that requires both hands to use.

Ascalam wrote:My mistake. They aren't chainfists at all, just chainswords with a rule that they act as powerfists that roll 2d6 for armour pen (just like chainfists). Nothing chainfistish there at all..

Doesn't matter. A WH player with nothing but the codex has no frame of reference for what a "chainfist" is. And nothing in the rules requires you to have access to every codex.

If a WH went against a Monolith and the Necron player said "No 2d6 for you!", it is the WH player's responsibility to demand to see the Living Metal rule. Without the second-printing line (which you mentioned above), the WH could say "Mine aren't extra, they're just 2d6! And the rule only calls out Chainfists, not Eviscerators which are Chainswords by fluff!"

That was essentially the stance of the OP, and I was trying to see how far it went.

Ascalam wrote:If you'll look up-thread i stated that rule too I got accused of lying on the 'no matter what issue, then vindicated .

I wasn't trying to direct that at you, my apologies. I knew it had been brought up already in the thread (didn't scroll to see who) and yet a poster still claimed that you got 4d6 from the Turbo-Penetrator. Again, not directed at you, even though you were the original quote.

Fair enough then

I just wish GW could be consistent with the same piece of gear. DH has them as Chainfists, whilst WH just ists the effect..

somerandomdude wrote:

Ascalam wrote:Eviscerators are chainfists. It even says that they work just like them if i remember correctly

No and no.

Eviscerators are chainswords.

It has the same general text as a Chainfist, but it doesn't make any reference to them.

If a WH player pulled out his Codex, which says 2d6, and used it against a Monolith, why can't he get 2d6 while a Turbo-Penetrator gets 4d6?

The answer: The Turbo-Penetrator doesn't get 4d6, because the Monolith says weapons never roll more than 1d6.

How many times does that sentence need to be stated, and how many times will it be ignored?

some codices say they follow the rules for Chainfists.


I would never roll 4D6 against a Monolith unless the FAQ addresses this, and then, only at WAAC tournaments.

its simply against the spirit of the game.

Not like it will be an issue for long anyway.

I guarantee that once the new codex drops the Living metal rule will be replaced with something far less easy to understand, and even more easy to argue for decades over

Anything else would make too much sense. Therefore it will not happen :(

Dashofpepper wrote:
You get 4D6 armour penetration against all vehicles - unless a vehicle specifically prohibits you from doing so. There's one vehicle in the game that does that.

Wave Serpents. Point still stands though.

Grey Templar wrote:I would never roll 4D6 against a Monolith unless the FAQ addresses this, and then, only at WAAC tournaments.

its simply against the spirit of the game.

What does "against the spirit of the game" mean? That's completely nebulous. Maybe against YOUR idea of the "spirit" of the game.

That could read either way, is the spirit of the game just from the Necron Codex, as in the Monolith is immune to everything?

or

Against the spirit of the Demon Hunter codex where the Turbo Penetrator is a specially crafted weapon exclusively for killing big armor.

Immovable object and Unstoppable force.

Just don't try and paint this as a spirit of the game issue when defending a viewpoint that's exclusively benefiting the Necron position. There's a spirit of the game argument to be made for the Turbo Penetrator as well. I own both armies and I think it ought to work, and thats certainly within the "Spirit of the game". Since the codex entry is more specific (it applies to a single weapon), it replaces the normal rules.

Besides newer codex rules trump older rules, and everyone knows the Necron codex is the oldest here. Dracos has it right:

Dracos wrote:Armor penetration is defined in the rulebook as Str + 1d6.

The rules in the codex grey knights explicitly states the turbo pen round has an armour penentration of 4d6.

The rules conflict with each other, as the S + 1d6 is not the same as 4d6. Since the codex entry is more specific (it applies to a single weapon), it replaces the normal rules.

The turbo penetration round always has armor penetration of 4d6. None of these dice are in any way extra, they are what the weapon normally gets when using this firing mode.

Therefore against Monolith and everything else, the Turbo pen round has an Armor Penetration of 4d6. Nothing more, nothing less.

edit: This is what RAW says...

Augustus wrote:
Besides newer codex rules trump older rules, and everyone knows the Necron codex is the oldest here.

New dex trumps old dex only if they are for the same army. Otherwise you need to quote a source for that.

Augustus wrote:Dracos has it right:

Dracos wrote:Armor penetration is defined in the rulebook as Str + 1d6.

The rules in the codex grey knights explicitly states the turbo pen round has an armour penentration of 4d6.

The rules conflict with each other, as the S + 1d6 is not the same as 4d6. Since the codex entry is more specific (it applies to a single weapon), it replaces the normal rules.

The turbo penetration round always has armor penetration of 4d6. None of these dice are in any way extra, they are what the weapon normally gets when using this firing mode.

Therefore against Monolith and everything else, the Turbo pen round has an Armor Penetration of 4d6. Nothing more, nothing less.

edit: This is what RAW says...

Unfortunately, the last line of the Living Metal rule does not care if it's "extra" dice or not:

In practice, any weapon attacking the Monolith will roll for armour penetration using its unaugmented strength and a single D6 no matter what.