Tau & Warp Travel Perfection

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**rockprime**

It is known that the Tau have developed warp travel on their own that does not use the Astronomicon for guidance, they merely jump into the warp for brief periods of time before jumping out. During the Meduca IV campaign, as well as the Kaurava campaign, the Tau studied the warp and were said to have gained significant knowledge and advances in that area of science. So, this could mean that the Tau are getting slowly closer to independant warp travel. If this happened, how significant would it be on the galaxy as a whole? Obviously the IoM would have a reaction akin to "HERESY NO MACHINE SPIRIT" but what about other races like the Eldar, or rogue traders? Could this discovery potentially be extremely significant to the Tau or the galaxy as a whole? The tau could branch out and expand much more than they have already, as their limitations were mostly based off of their lack of ability to travel long distances in space, hence their being a clustered "empire" of a few dozen worlds.

Thoughts?

**-Loki-**

Not really. They kind of 'skim' the warp. While its safer, it's also far, far slower. They really can't navigate the warp properly because it's impossble without something like the Astronomican and Navigators.

**IvanTih**

rockprime wrote:It is known that the Tau have developed warp travel on their own that does not use the Astronomicon for guidance, they merely jump into the warp for brief periods of time before jumping out. During the Meduca IV campaign, as well as the Kaurava campaign, the Tau studied the warp and were said to have gained significant knowledge and advances in that area of science. So, this could mean that the Tau are getting slowly closer to independant warp travel. If this happened, how significant would it be on the galaxy as a whole? Obviously the IoM would have a reaction akin to "HERESY NO MACHINE SPIRIT" but what about other races like the Eldar, or rogue traders? Could this discovery potentially be extremely significant to the Tau or the galaxy as a whole? The tau could branch out and expand much more than they have already, as their limitations were mostly based off of their lack of ability to travel long distances in space, hence their being a clustered "empire" of a few dozen worlds.

Thoughts?

Also they don't have FTL communication so if they continue to expand they'll get stretched to thin.

**darkcloud92**

The warp is not the only thing keeping them from expanding further. In fact it is not even the most pressing thing that is keeping them from expanding further at the moment. They are a young race and not a fully established Empire yet. They simply do not have the numbers to push on further at the moment, so being able to warp anywhere in the galaxy would not help them to expand in that respect. Do not get me wrong the Tau are powerful and should not be taken lightly, but they are still in a whole edition behind

Also they will need more time to grow internally before they can expand further

**rockprime**

-Loki- wrote:Not really. They kind of 'skim' the warp. While its safer, it's also far, far slower. They really can't navigate the warp properly because it's impossble without something like the Astronomican and Navigators.

They actually do have navigators of a psychic nature.
See: Nicassar.

So, if they did invent independant warp travel, it could change a bit, as they could navigate it.

And to the other guy: at least 100 if not 200+ years have passed since the last codex... im pretty sure that some sort of expansion/pop growth has happened since then...

**-Loki-**

rockprime wrote:
-Loki- wrote:Not really. They kind of 'skim' the warp. While its safer, it's also far, far slower. They really can't navigate the warp properly because it's impossble without something like the Astronomican and Navigators.

They actually do have navigators of a psychic nature.
See: Nicassar.

Nicassar aren't psychic navigators at all. They're highly psychic, but they aren't navigators. They don't have interstellar travel ability.

The Nicassar ships known as Dhows are small maneuverable yet elegant yachts propelled by the psychic powers of the captain. But they lack any real interstellar capability. As such, they are often towed by Tau ships, and also provided with upgraded Tau weaponry, or they will travel slowly for centuries while in hibernation.

They're even slower at space travel than Tau. They're not a replacement for the Astronimican and Navigators. Think of it as psychic sublight travel.

**rockprime**

-Loki- wrote:
rockprime wrote:
-Loki- wrote:Not really. They kind of 'skim' the warp. While its safer, it's also far, far slower. They really can't navigate the warp properly because it's impossble without something like the Astronomican and Navigators.

They actually do have navigators of a psychic nature.
See: Nicassar.

Nicassar aren't psychic navigators at all. They're highly psychic, but they aren't navigators. They don't have interstellar travel ability.

The Nicassar ships known as Dhows are small maneuverable yet elegant yachts propelled by the psychic powers of the captain. But they lack any real interstellar capability. As such, they are often towed by Tau ships, and also provided with upgraded Tau weaponry, or they will travel slowly for centuries while in hibernation.

They're even slower at space travel than Tau. They're not a replacement for the Astronimican and Navigators. Think of it as psychic sublight travel.

The Tau could use them as astropaths after discovering this new form of warp travel.

**-Loki-**

rockprime wrote:The Tau could use them as astropaths after discovering this new form of warp travel.

You're misunderstanding their psychic abilities.

A Navigator uses the astronomican as a kind of light house. An astropath communicates via the warp.

Nicassar are basically highly telekinetic. They move the ships with their mind. They don't slip into the warp or use it for any kind of advanced navigation. Their mind is literally the ships engine, and not a fast one either.

**rockprime**

-Loki- wrote:
rockprime wrote:The Tau could use them as astropaths after discovering this new form of warp travel.

You're misunderstanding their psychic abilities.

A Navigator uses the astronomican as a kind of light house. An astropath communicates via the warp.

Nicassar are basically highly telekinetic. They move the ships with their mind. They don't slip into the warp or use it for any kind of advanced navigation. Their mind is literally the ships engine, and not a fast one either.

You imply that one can't lock onto the signal from the astropath and use it to arrive at a destination.

While i do understand that I may be misinterpreting it a bit, there is not much known about the Nicassar at this time, and for all we know their ability to act as mini-Astronomicons is being hidden, much like their existence, from the rest of the galaxy. We just have to wait.
Damn GW and their slowness on non-Imperial codices >:/

**xXSir MontyXx**

darkcloud92 wrote:The warp is not the only thing keeping them from expanding further. In fact it is not even the most pressing thing that is keeping them from expanding further at the moment. They are a young race and not a fully established Empire yet. They simply do not have the numbers to push on further at the moment, so being able to warp anywhere in the galaxy would not help them to expand in that respect. Do not get me wrong the Tau are powerful and should not be taken lightly, but they are still in a whole edition behind Also they will need more time to grow internally before they can expand further

This is true, if they were to colonize more worlds they would be stretched FAR to thin to hold them for any normal battle of 40K standards.

**-Loki-**

rockprime wrote:
-Loki- wrote:
rockprime wrote:The Tau could use them as astropaths after discovering this new form of warp travel.

You're misunderstanding their psychic abilities.

A Navigator uses the astronomican as a kind of light house. An astropath communicates via the warp.

Nicassar are basically highly telekinetic. They move the ships with their mind. They don't slip into the warp or use it for any kind of advanced navigation. Their mind is literally the ships engine, and not a fast one either.

You imply that one can't lock onto the signal from the astropath and use it to arrive at a destination.

Highly unlikely. The navigators have a very specific mutation to let them use the astronimican the way they do.

rockprime wrote:While i do understand that I may be misinterpreting it a bit, there is not much known about the Nicassar at this time, and for all we know their ability to act as mini-Astronomicons is being hidden, much like their existence, from the rest of the galaxy. We just have to wait.
Damn GW and their slowness on non-Imperial codices >:/

If they were 'mini-astronomicans', the Tau wouldn't be able to hide them at all. While the navigators have a specific mutation to use the astronimican as a navigational guide, pretty much everything psychic cans ee the astronimican. Having a race of psychic aliens giving out that kind of psychc signal would be seen by pretty much everyone.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Not to mention, it's been implied in newer fluff that while someone/thing might be psychic, exactly what they can do is down to the mutation they have. One might by pyrokinetic, one might be telekinetic, one might be telepathic. The description of the Nicassars power sounds very much like they're telekinetic.

While this doesn't mean they can't navigate, nothing in the fluff supports them being able to.

**ChrisWWII**

The Nicassar are highly psychic, but they are in no way equivalents or replacements of the Astronomicon and astropath system.

Let's not forget that Astropaths are formed by being 'soul-bound' by the Emperor himself to allow them to relatively safely communicate through the Warp. Navigators are the product of a very specific human mutation that allows them to see the warp and navigate given the psychic light of the Astronomicon.

Also, it's a common misconception that losing the Astronomicon means no warp travel period. You can make short Warp jumps without the Astronomicon, however you can't make the long ones, so speed is severely reduced.

If the Tau were to develop full warp travel, they'd need some kind of navigational beacon for it to be any better than their current system. They would also need to have some kind of Gellar Field equivalent to protect them from daemons etc.

**1hadhq**

rockprime wrote:

And to the other guy: at least 100 if not 200+ years have passed since the last codex... im pretty sure that some sort of expansion/pop growth has happened since then...

Not really.

Codex Tau empire brought you the 3rd sphere and this happened per (40k expansion) Planetstrike in 998.M41.
Now, the timeline is frozen in 999.M41.
Maybe 2 zeros are too much...

How about the fluff of 5th ed (rulebook, expansions, non-Tau codices) ?

**BluntmanDC**

rockprime wrote:You imply that one can't lock onto the signal from the astropath and use it to arrive at a destination.
While i do understand that I may be misinterpreting it a bit, there is not much known about the Nicassar at this time, and for all we know their ability to act as mini-Astronomicons is being hidden, much like their existence, from the rest of the galaxy. We just have to wait.
Damn GW and their slowness on non-Imperial codices >:/

You missunderstand what the Astronomicon is. The Astronomicon is used for long distance warp travel as it acts a single defined point within the warp, Terra's position in the warp, This allows Navigators (who were specifically created by the Emperor) to traverse the warp far safer that without it.

Having a race of 'mini- astronomicons' would make warp travel harder, as a Navigator/alien psyker wouldn't know which of the multiple signals is which, so wouldn't know where the ship is while in the warp.

**Kilkrazy**

1. The Tau were helped to develop warp travel by discovering a derelict alien ship on one of their moons.

2. The Medusa V campaign ended with the Ethereals forbidding further research into warp technology.

3. The Tau do have FTL comms. It is referred to in the codex.

4. Points 1 and 2 would not prevent the Tau from developing a different method of FTL travel, or getting something from another alien ally, however it is unlikely to happen as GW do not advance the timeline.

**Corporal_Reznov**

Please look at this map before you go on a Tau mary-sue dream - http://www.joachim-adomeit.de/wh40k/spacemap/map.html

The Tau don't need the Astronomican because they are small, if they had proper Imperial Warp drive which they need to conquer the galaxy they would need the Astronomican. But that would require the sacrifice of human psykers so if the Tau used the Astronomican they are nothing but another Imperium of man just aliens in charge.

**Medium of Death**

I always imagined the Nicassar to look like the Advisors from the Half Life videogame series.

Spoiler:

Possessing similar abilities, telekinesis etc.

Necron tech is the best form of FTL travel around, it's quite possible that the Tau could stumble down that path eventually.

**Melissia**

rockprime wrote:They actually do have navigators of a psychic nature.
See: Nicassar.

Nicassar can't do warp travel. They are towed along by Tau fleet when they do their FTL jumps, and otherwise hibernate for long distance travel.

**Medium of Death**

I'm assuming a Nicassar in the warp would become a portal for all kinds of unholy gak to spill out of?

Hmm, could be something interesting there...

**iproxtaco**

Without some form of navigator, the Tau will not achieve full Warp travel. The Nissacar are not navigators, the Kroot don't trust them, and they do not have access to human navigators of any skill in which to ask for their aid, or any at all. Plus, they have nothing like the Astronomican.

They can do as much research as they want. It'll be useless without a navigator.

Of course, they could easily go down the road of the Tyranid or Necron FTL, which is a lot more achievable.

I love that map, really puts into perspective how small the Tau actually are. The Imperium could easily delegate the resources to crush them. But that's for the other thread.

**Corporal_Reznov**

iproxtaco wrote:Without some form of navigator, the Tau will not achieve full Warp travel. The Nissacar are not navigators, the Kroot don't trust them, and they do not have access to human navigators of any skill in which to ask for their aid, or any at all. Plus, they have nothing like the Astronomican.

They can do as much research as they want. It'll be useless without a navigator.

Of course, they could easily go down the road of the Tyranid or Necron FTL, which is a lot more achievable.

I love that map, really puts into perspective how small the Tau actually are. The Imperium could easily delegate the resources to crush them. But that's for the other thread.

The day the Tau have Necron ftl is the day I quit Warhammer 40k. The Necrons in their original organic state never discovered their ftl system. For all intense and purposes they used sub-light ships in order to colonize planets and battle the Old Ones. Hell, the reason they lost the war with the Old Ones was that the Old Ones had ftl travel with their Webway and the Warp. It was only when the Necrontyr gave the C'tan physical form did they finally get their ftl system which was given to them by the C'tan. If a race who fought against the Old Ones and used "Living Metal" couldn't find a non-psychic ftl method than the Tau, a young and non-psychic race is not going to succeed where they failed.

Tyranids ftl is slow as hell and thus not suitable for empires that range across the galaxy.

**Melissia**

Besides, Tyranid FTL still requires a strong psychic presence.

**DarknessEternal**

You mentioned the impact on Eldar in the OP: Eldar don't travel through the warp. They already do it faster and safer via other means.

**ChrisWWII**

DarknessEternal wrote:You mentioned the impact on Eldar in the OP: Eldar don't travel through the warp. They already do it faster and safer via other means.

They can if they want, but the Eldar prefer the Webway since it's safer for them.

**Corporal_Reznov**

DarknessEternal wrote:You mentioned the impact on Eldar in the OP: Eldar don't travel through the warp. They already do it faster and safer via other means.

Here is some fluff

Webway from Lexicanum.com wrote:It exists between the material universe and the Warp, part of both but not fully within either. They are noted by the Eldar to being different from the Warp and from any other place. Amongst their stories, it is said by the Eldar that travellers meet their past or even their future selves within these tunnels. The more enigmatic Harlequins say that there are remote locations within the Webway where the flow of time seemingly goes in reverse or does not flow at all.3 Within the Webway are countless gates or portals leading to many areas across the galaxy. Each Eldar craftworld is connected through the Webway system. Reaching a certain destination through the Webway makes a guide or map necessary.

The Webway is a fairly safe method of travel compared to Warp travel, as it does not involve traveling through the completely unpredictable and hostile Warp dimension. There is still danger, however: the Webway consists of countless paths and tunnels in which it is profoundly easy to become lost in, and also vast impassable areas taken over by Chaos. Many portals of the Webway lead to hostile areas of the galaxy, such as former Eldar worlds in the Eye of Terror now turned into Daemon Worlds. There are also many portals defended by the Eldar and guarded with runes of protection against Chaos and the invasion of Daemons.

Fluff also states that the Webway was created by the Old Ones not the Eldar.

**Melissia**

And yet, only the Eldar have mastered its use.

The webway is effectively outside of the warp while being inside of it. It's a very alien place.

**Corporal_Reznov**

Melissia wrote:And yet, only the Eldar have mastered its use.

The webway is effectively outside of the warp while being inside of it. It's a very alien place.

Actually Melissia, The Old Ones were the ones to master the webway seeing as they created it. They simply decided to teach the Eldar how to use it and repair it somewhat.

**BluntmanDC**

Corporal_Reznov wrote:
Melissia wrote:And yet, only the Eldar have mastered its use.

The webway is effectively outside of the warp while being inside of it. It's a very alien place.
Actually Melissia, The Old Ones were the ones to master the webway seeing as they created it. They simply decided to teach the Eldar how to use it and repair it somewhat.

You missed the point she was making, the Eldar are the only race currently around that have to some degree mastered its use.

Do the math:

Old One and Eldar know how to use the webway, take away the fact that the Old Ones are dead/transended/left the galaxy/devolved, equals 'only the Eldar have masteres its use'

**DarknessEternal**

Whether or not the Webway is outside of the warp is a lot like the idea that the gastro-intestinal tract is outside the body.

**Kilkrazy**

Corporal_Reznov wrote:Please look at this map before you go on a Tau mary-sue dream - http://www.joachim-adomeit.de/wh40k/spacemap/map.html

The Tau don't need the Astronomican because they are small, if they had proper Imperial Warp drive which they need to conquer the galaxy they would need the Astronomican. But that would require the sacrifice of human psykers so if the Tau used the Astronomican they are nothing but another Imperium of man just aliens in charge.

A bunch of species including humans conquered the galaxy without using warp drive and the Astronomican.