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Something I've been wondering for a while is if a conscript squad with Send in the Next Wave that is also part of Al'Rahem's platoon can outflank when coming back into play.

I shall post the rules for reference purposes only. I will bold important parts.

Imperial Guard Codex p. 65 wrote:Send in the Next Wave: An army that includes Commander Chenkov may purchase this special rule for its Conscript squads, as described in the army list. A unit with this special rule can, at the start of the player's turn, be removed from play as casualties if the controlling player wishes, counting as destroyed.

Any unit with this special rule that is removed from play may be brought back into play at the beginning of the controlling player's next turn. The new unit moves onto the board from the player's board edge. The unit arrives with as many models and exactly the same armaments as its full strength predecessor - it is treated as a new, identical unit that has just arrived from reserve.

Imperial Guard Codex p. 64 wrote:Stalk the Enemy: Al'rahem and his men will track the enemy for days at a time before attacking, encircling the foe's defensive perimeters and waiting for the opportune moment. Any unit that is part of Al'rahem's Infantry Platoon must outflank.

Personally, I think that the new conscript squad CAN outflank, mainly because it must since it is part of Al'rahem's unit. However, with Chenkov's rule, it says that the unit moves onto the player's board edge, although it doesn't say that it must.

Not that I really know, but are infantry platoons and conscripts the same thing? If they are then there might be a problem as it still says the "new unit moves onto the board from the player's board edge".

my .02

No, conscript squads are part of a platoon. Infantry platoons consist of 1 platoon command squad, 2-5 infantry squads, 0-5 heavy weapons squads, 0-2 special weapons squads, and 0-1 conscript squads.

You cannot move on via outflank, as the new unit did not declare outflank during the deployment phase.

It specfically states it is a NEW unit. It is NOT part of the original platoon.

O' contraire, it IS part of the original platoon. It was just waiting in reserve for the first squad to be killed off, so it can be sent in as a new wave.

"it is treated as a new, identical unit "

How is this not a new unit?

Nothing states it is part of Als platoon, so it isnt. It is a NEW unit.


You also failed to counter the initial point; you have NO ability to bring a unit in from outflank unless you declared it was entering that way at deployment. At deployment this unit did not exist.

Arriving from reserve is arriving from your deployment edge. At the start of the game that one unit can outflank, but after the start that is lost.

Conscripts arrive from your deployment edge.

nosferatu1001 wrote:"it is treated as a new, identical unit "

How is this not a new unit?

Nothing states it is part of Als platoon, so it isnt. It is a NEW unit.


You also failed to counter the initial point; you have NO ability to bring a unit in from outflank unless you declared it was entering that way at deployment. At deployment this unit did not exist.

I am not starting to start an argument here, so you may as well throw your "counter the point" stuff out. I just want to know, and I accept that I cannot outflank with the unit (which is unfortunate). Also, I never said that it wasn't a new unit. I said that it was still part of the platoon because it is as if a unit of conscripts was waiting just off the battlefield, waiting for their comrades to die so they can be sent into the slaughter. Because of this, it is implied that the unit IS part of Al's platoon. But I'm not going to argue about this anymore. The point of this thread is to ask questions, and get answers. Not argue constantly.

juraigamer wrote:Arriving from reserve is arriving from your deployment edge. At the start of the game that one unit can outflank, but after the start that is lost.

Conscripts arrive from your deployment edge.

Thanks for the info.

Doesn't it only work for Chenkov's platoon?
If that's the case, then Al'rahem platoon is from a different platoon and thus the rule desn't apply.
Not sure, though...

Nah, any conscript squad can take the rule for 75 pts.

You asked a question, and I answered. You then countered it with something yet again not based in rules but a feeling.

the unit is NOT part of Als platoon. WHne you write your roster, is the unit part of the platoon? No.

It's that simple

The replacement unit, or the original unit?

The replacement unit. The fluff may say whatever you like, but the rules say "new unit".

If an army has chekov it can buy SITNW. If a platoon has Al, it MUST outflank.

I buy 2 infantry platoons, identical except for 1 having Al. The conscripts from the non-Al platoon come in from my edge, the conscripts from Al's platoon outflank. SITNW conscripts from Al's outflank, the rest don't.

Conscripts in above paragraph are the replacements, BTW.

-cgmckenzie

cgmckenzie wrote:If an army has chekov it can buy SITNW. If a platoon has Al, it MUST outflank.

I buy 2 infantry platoons, identical except for 1 having Al. The conscripts from the non-Al platoon come in from my edge, the conscripts from Al's platoon outflank. SITNW conscripts from Al's outflank, the rest don't.

Conscripts in above paragraph are the replacements, BTW.

-cgmckenzie

Again, you can't outflank with the new replacement units because you didn't declare them as outflanking at the beginning of the game. Replacement units are not the original unit - at the beginning of the game, the 'next wave' units didn't even exist. That's assuming that the 'next wave' units are considered part of Al's platoon, which they are not.

You play it this way - but that doesn't make it correct.

cgm - you are wrong on the Outflank. This was also addressed. Please see preparing reserves, about page 95 in the rulebook

When you are preparing you reserves, you declare that your conscripts from Al's platoon will be outflanking. You have to mention SITNW during deployment for both anyway because they are both count as coming from reserve and all reserves have to be declared. Forgot to mention that last night.

The two units are identical, so if the originals have outflank ala Al, then the new ones do to. They are part of the same infantry platoon because they are identical.

And that was a hypothetical. I don't play with either IC ATM. "I" is easier to type than "you"

-cgmckenzie

You cannot declare the new unit is coming on from Outflank, as it does not exist yet.

No, you don't have additional models to represent the unit but it exists on paper as soon as you plonk down the 75pts for SITNW.

ALL units coming in from reserve, be the deep striking, walking on, or outflanking must be declared at the beginning of the game. This applies to conscripts as well, even if you just say "This squad has SITNW and will be outflanking/walking on once the previous unit is destroyed."

If you don't declare a unit as coming from reserves, it doesn't.

BRB pg 94 "During deployment, when declaring which units are left in reseve, the player must clearly explain the organization of his reserves to the opponent."
and
"If units in reserve has the 'deep strike', 'scout', or 'infiltrate' special rule, the player must declare to his opponent, during army deployment, whether they are going to use their special rules to deep strike/outflank or they are going to enter from his own table edge when they will become avaiable(see Arriving from Reserve). This decision may not be changed later."

SITNW has them come in from reserve, therefore they must be declared at deployment. Being an identical unit to Al's, they have the special rules conveyed to it by him.

-cgmckenzie

SINTW has a special rule allowing the unit to come on as if it were in reserves.

It isnt actually in reserves.

WHen you declare reserves, please point to the EXACT unit, out of the models that arew on the table, that is coming in via Outflank. Only THAT uniit can come in via outflank.

The replacement unit is just that: a replacement unit. Not one that can arrive via Outflank

Where does it say you must point to the models when declaring who comes in where? All it says is that you must explain your organization chart to your opponent, not point to the models.

If you want me to be pointing to the individual units, bully for you but there is no rule that says I must do that. Nor is there a rule saying I must lay all my miniatures on the table edge. As long as I explain my force org list I can keep my reserve units in the case until I pull them out.

-cgmckenzie

Point me the "free" unit on your list, then.

You dont have one there. Nothing you can post allows you to get around that glaring omission.

There is no 'free' unit on my list. The proposed list includes a 75pt upgrade that treats the destroyed conscripts as a new unit coming in from reserve. I fail to see any omission in this.

-cgmckenzie

I agree with cgmckenzie on this one. You have to let the opponent know that the conscript squads have SITNW, and that one of the squads can outflank because of Al'Rahem. As I mentioned earlier, the replacement squad is basically another squad in the same platoon that is waiting for the first squad to die. Now, they will probably not be on the table edge of their owner, because the outflanked with the rest of the platoon, but were just waiting on the sidelines for their predecessor to inevitably die. That's how I look at it, which is why I think that it makes sense to declare them as outflanking on the first turn, even when they have to come in later. I also think that the reason this whole conflict about "laying out minis on the sidelines" and "free unit on list" boils down to how the person plays 40k. That is your personal preference, not necessarily what is right or wrong.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, the sudden amount of posts was surprising.

"the replacement squad is basically another squad in the same platoon that is waiting for the first squad to die"

That is not, however, what the rules say

You're right. It's not stated: it's implied. Do you think a conscript squad would magically appear out of nowhere to take the previous squad's place, or do you think that they would be ready for the order to charge into gunfire?

I think I'm just going to ask the manager of my local store on Saturday, and I'm going to explain my reasoning to him, and listen to his input.

Actually, the rules say just that. The entire concept of 'the next wave' means that they are waiting for the 1st wave to fail.

For the unit to be identical to the previous one(except for being, you know, alive) they will have to be from the same platoon. 1st plt charlie squad is not identical to 2nd plt charlie squad.

-cgmckenzie

Relevant Rules:

Stalk the Enemy
"...Al'rahem's infantry platoon must outflank."

SitNW
"The new unit moves onto the board from the player's board edge."
"... and exactly the same armaments as its full strength predecessor - it is treated as a new, identical unit that has just arrived from reserve."

I would say yes-ish...

If we say that armaments includes wargear and other upgrades such that the new conscripts have SitNW, then we could say they also have Outflank.
(StE doesn't specifically grant Outflank, however if you wanted to Outflank, you would need the ability to Outflank, and since they must Outflank, they must of the ability to Outflank, granting them the Outflank special rule.)

If we accept that then it becomes SitNW's 'arrives from player's edge' against StE's 'Must Outflank' Imperative Statement thus allowing them to Outflank when they arrive from reserve.

basically it comes down to 'do this' vs 'you must do this'

No, cgm, the fluff says that.

They are not, at the time of writing your Army List, part of the platoon. At the time you write your army list they do NOT exist. The only time they exist is when their trigger condition occurs.

For what Identical means in 40k terms, see the rules for wound allocation. Platoon allegiance is not what 40k considers important.

The rule name is 'send in the next wave'. I am not quoting any fluff, just standard military convention and the rule name.

At the time of writing the army list, they are part of the platoon. Specifically, they are a unit that costs 75pts. Their list entry is written down as an upgrade for the conscripts. They are exactly the same as the original, so if my original unit must outflank, my new unit must outflank.

And read SITNW again. If you really want to run your way(they don't exist until the others are dead) the rule says 'Any unit with this special rule that is removed from play may be brought back into play...' This line doesn't make it a new unit, just the same unit coming back. It must outflank when it is deployed, so when it is redeployed it must outflank again.

-cgmckenzie