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Just curious,

Right now, halberds are the go-to load out for PAGK but if the impending GW FAQ confirms it's +2A, the prospect of 5 attacks on the charge for purifiers can't be ignored. I'm just curious, how likely do you think it is that falchions would all of a sudden become the default load out?

For MSUs, the +I halberds grant seems invaluable since it gives you that last chance to whittle down your enemies more (you'll be shooting them up as much as possible before you end up in CC) before they get to attack you and that may be the difference between living and dying. But, against troops that are I4 or below, the Falchions would be incredible. Could the Falchions extra attacks cover the loss of an extra man or two if you dropped from I6 to I4?

If you built a list for a tournament, would you go for the Falchions or stick with the relative safety of halberds for those pesky 5+ initiative armies you're probably going to face sooner or later?

Why, exactly, would the falchions grant you +2 attacks? You are getting an extra attack for having two force weapons instead of just one, what else do you want?

There's been long discussions about this already over in YMDC so I'm not asking about whether you think it will or will not grant +2A - I personally felt initially that you only got the one but hoped for two but now there's a FAQ on the way.

I'm just trying to get some idea of how people think +2A falchions (if it is FAQd that way) would compare to halberds.

I agree, GK are bad ass enough without +2 A. To me is clearly intended to give them 2 cc weapons, hence + 1 A. Just my 2 cents.

Personally I don't think the FAQ is going to grant +2 attacks because it moves units like paladins from being strong to just completely overpowered. Paladins with falchions and a brotherhood banner would have 6 attacks each on the charge. That's ridiculous, plain and simple. And it gets worse if you throw in a librarian with quick silver/might of titan. A unit of 5 with banner, and attached librarian, with falchions would have 31 WS 5 STR 6 I 10 force weapon attacks on the charge if all of the powers go off.
Name a unit that can survive that and deal damage damage back to the paladins in return. The only one I can think of is a full strength IG powerblob, who would have lost around 10 models from the paladin's shooting attacks before that charge even occurred, probably still causing a total wipe in 1 round of combat.

Something to think about when you discuss unclear rules like falchions is the effect they have when combined with the entire codex. Individually, granting a model +2 attacks isn't game breaking, but it quickly turns out that way when you look at entire units with those extra attacks, and then combine things like brotherhood banners and HQ support.

If GW is crazy enough to go with the +2 attacks on falchions, I'm going to run a unit of paladins equipped that way and proceed to laugh if anyone ever tries to take them on in an assault.

heh, when you put it like that, it does seem a bit stupid to give them +2A but what a ride it would be!

This is assuming the FaQ addresses the issue of Falchions.

for friendly games I see the +2A as pretty darn good. But in a TAC list i think the loss of I6 is too important. you are going to have to many other models striking first against you thereby nullifying the advantage of your extra attacks. I'd rather have 15 attacks that get to strike before my opponent then 25 after I get attacked if no model dies. To risky in my book. Now that being said if you have someway to boost the units I value with a librarian or reduce your opponents with grenades I could see things being slightly different

Paladins are the only unit I would swap all my my halberds for falchions on if they granted +2 attacks. Even without support paladins are tough enough to with stand high initiative enemies striking first, so long as they can get the charge.

On other units, I might throw in 1 or 2 falchions to boost the number of attacks, but over all stick with halberds on everyone else. Gaining 2-4 extra attacks is a worthwhile trade but losing initiative 6 across the entire unit definitely isn't.

I'd probably throw at least one in any squad that has a banner. Other than that, not much. I'd consider it on GKPA guys, but probably not on terminators. I'd be unwilling to replace the halibreds for those, and the swords I need for the +1 invul. Part of the problem is that they're already crazy expensive. It's just too hard to devote more points for them to be able to do something they should only generally be doing as a last (albeit effective) resort.

falchions with +2 attacks are nice to create a close combat deathstar, but gk's arent a close combat army. a land raider full of paladins and a librarian tips the scales at like 650+pts, thats an awful lot for something a bunch of meltaguns can blow away fairly easily.

meltaguns blowing up your super expensive units is nothing new for GK or 40k in general. That's the risk you run in putting such a giant pile of points into such a small unit. You could say that about any paladin set up with or without a land raider.

The point is that those falchions would turn an already powerful unit into an almost unstoppable deathstar. If they did the enemy lines, I wouldn't count on anything surviving their charge.

GK aren't a close combat army its true, but a change like that in the FAQ would make me seriously reconsider that. Enough bonus attacks really tips the scales from just being good at assault to unstoppable.

I cant see GW letting them be +2 attacks, as theyve been ruling against RAW for years now. You have 2 weapons, you get +1 attack you dont have 3 weapons. If they do say its +2 attacks I will be absolutely amazed

Based on opinion on here, I agree it would be silly to say the least to give them +2 attacks but then the falchions wouldn't actually grant any bonus at all whereas all other NFW do. I can't see them allowing falchions to do nothing special whereas all other NFW do.

Plus, just because it would make Paladins OP, it doesn't mean that it would make everything else OP - far from it. Maybe they could do something that makes it different for TAGK and PAGK - they have already set that precedent with the swords, after all.

I6 is still a beter option, IMHO. At that high of an initiative, you are still striking before most character level models, much less elite assault units. Add in HH and possibly MOT, and you have an alpha-strike high strength unit. At I4, most characters and/or elite enemy units could wipe out half (or more) of your falchion equipped unit before you even get to attack.

Bruteboss wrote:
GK aren't a close combat army its true, but a change like that in the FAQ would make me seriously reconsider that. Enough bonus attacks really tips the scales from just being good at assault to unstoppable.

Is there really anything that can stand up to a unit of paladins with a libby and regular diversified equipment? You are looking at a truckload of S6/8+2d6, powerweapon instant deathing attacks at I10 either way, it's pretty horrifying.
I would rather face pallies that I knew would wipe out the opposition every cc phase so I was sure to get a solid shooting phase on them.

I am still unsure of using Pallies at all.On PAGK,though,6 Halberds,2 pairs of Falchions and a couple of Psycannon would be nice,if somewhat expensive.

Because of their point cost, I'm just using the occasional Falchion for wound allocation. If they are indeed +2A, there'd still be no reason for me to take any more of them than I do right now.

SJ

5 x Paladins, 4 w/ Falchions, 1 w/ B. Banner. Mordrak. Librarian w/ Quicksilver, MoT and Falchions.

30, WS5, S6, I10 force weapon attacks followed by 6, S10, WS6, MC Daemon hammer attacks.

Eat it!

L. Wrex

EDIT: That also Deep Strike on the first turn without scatter. A definite 'deal with me or else' unit.

I don't think it's worth it on SS or purifiers, especially since the addition of falchions will result in the extra attacks going off at the same I4 that the no power weapons psycannons swing in CC resulting in potential wound allocation shenanigans.

Paladins are tough enough to survive most attacks that come before I4. They will be good with or without the additional +2 attacks, and because both options are so good the debate over which option is more awesome is an endless and pointless debate.

I don't think a brother captain or GM needs to be I7 so the real debate is between a 3+ invo with 3 base attacks or a 4+ invo with 5 base attacks. With WS6, hammerhand, MC force weapons, and digital weapons the brother captain/GM can be a real cc monster. I'm really leaning towards the +2 attacks on the GM/brother captain.

Lycaeus Wrex wrote:5 x Paladins, 4 w/ Falchions, 1 w/ B. Banner. Mordrak. Librarian w/ Quicksilver, MoT and Falchions.

30, WS5, S6, I10 force weapon attacks followed by 6, S10, WS6, MC Daemon hammer attacks.

Eat it!

L. Wrex

EDIT: That also Deep Strike on the first turn without scatter. A definite 'deal with me or else' unit.

Mordrak isn't an ID, sorry to say. He can't join the paladins. Although a regular GM can, with similar power

Bruteboss wrote:Mordrak isn't an ID, sorry to say. He can't join the paladins. Although a regular GM can, with similar power

His unit type is described as 'Infantry (character)'. More-so his 'First to the Fray' rule details that he and 'any unit he accompanies' ...etc. etc. Daigo can join a unit and his unit type is exactly the same as Mordraks.

I consider my tactic still valid.

L. Wrex

EDIT: And just to really rub it in, a regular GM's unit type is the same as Mordrak's.

Unit type is irrelevant. Draigo and regular GMs are independent characters. Mordrak is not.

Your tactic is not valid.

Wouldn't matter if it was valid or not (which it isn't), since they still can't Assault when they arrive (0, WS5, S6, I10 force weapon attacks followed by 0, S10, WS6, MC Daemon hammer attacks).

SJ

Lycaeus Wrex wrote:5 x Paladins, 4 w/ Falchions, 1 w/ B. Banner. Mordrak. Librarian w/ Quicksilver, MoT and Falchions.

30, WS5, S6, I10 force weapon attacks followed by 6, S10, WS6, MC Daemon hammer attacks.

Even if this were legal, I drive away from your 700 points and there's nothing you can do about it.

Bruteboss wrote:Personally I don't think the FAQ is going to grant +2 attacks because it moves units like paladins from being strong to just completely overpowered. Paladins with falchions and a brotherhood banner would have 6 attacks each on the charge. That's ridiculous, plain and simple. And it gets worse if you throw in a librarian with quick silver/might of titan. A unit of 5 with banner, and attached librarian, with falchions would have 31 WS 5 STR 6 I 10 force weapon attacks on the charge if all of the powers go off.
Name a unit that can survive that and deal damage damage back to the paladins in return. The only one I can think of is a full strength IG powerblob, who would have lost around 10 models from the paladin's shooting attacks before that charge even occurred, probably still causing a total wipe in 1 round of combat.

Something to think about when you discuss unclear rules like falchions is the effect they have when combined with the entireits with those extra attacks, and then combine things like brotherhood banners and HQ support.

Your forgetting Mastery Level 3 and Giving the Might of Titan. I think then they could possible bring down a titans void shields.

I think Halberds will still be the weapon of choice, at least for Purifiers.

Purifiers' only flaw as a unit is that a regular 3+ save isn't fantastic protection for a unit of models costing 26 points each and therefore unable to win battles of attrition. I6 with nemesis force weapons is disgusting because it means they will barely face any hits back from the units that would otherwise beat them through attrition or striking first (e.g. BAngles with furious charge, Incubi, Bloodletters, various characters, etc).

Far as I'm concerned, +2 attacks from Falchions would be no more disgusting than the I6 from Halberds.

I could see 2+ attack Falchions being used on a couple Paladins in a squad, but they don't concern me like Purifiers do. They can be solved through avoidance.

Falchions are hardly overpowered, even with +2 attacks. Lightning claws are better, and they come for free on SM Terminators.

Sure, a Paladin Squad with a Librarian will be absolutely devestating on the charge. But you have to remember the costs associated with that, as well as the method of delivery. The Librarian and even just 5 Paladins are going to take up a massive portion of any list, and if you actually want to get the charge, you're looking at the additional cost of a Land Raider as well. At that point, you're easily crossing into 700-800 points for 6 men and a transport.

Fafnir wrote:Falchions are hardly overpowered, even with +2 attacks. Lightning claws are better, and they come for free on SM Terminators.

Sure, a Paladin Squad with a Librarian will be absolutely devestating on the charge. But you have to remember the costs associated with that, as well as the method of delivery. The Librarian and even just 5 Paladins are going to take up a massive portion of any list, and if you actually want to get the charge, you're looking at the additional cost of a Land Raider as well. At that point, you're easily crossing into 700-800 points for 6 men and a transport.

Its proably better to just use DCA instead they're still slaughtering what ever they hit and at a third of the cost

Omegus wrote:Unit type is irrelevant. Draigo and regular GMs are independent characters. Mordrak is not.

Your tactic is not valid.

I see it now! Tactic is not valid. =)

L. Wrex


Automatically Appended Next Post:

DarknessEternal wrote:

Even if this were legal, I drive away from your 700 points and there's nothing you can do about it.

I'm sure you would if terrain, model placement, distances, and the rest of my army were non-factors. Which they are. The more you run the less you shoot, and the more kettled up the rest of your army becomes. There's only so much running you can do on a 6'x4' board.

L. Wrex