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Well, now Lash of Submission is officially not a psychic shooting attack, meaning I can lash one unit and charge another.

More importantly, a lash sorcerer joined to a template squad is useful now. Since his power isn't a shooting attack, he can use Lash to pull enemies closer, then the unit he's with can fire their templates.

This opens up entirely new WORLDS for my Emperor's Children. No longer must my DPs have to decide between being a force multiplier and being the force themselves! I wish this FAQ had come out Friday!

Also going to toss it out there that now you can have a sorcerer in a Land Raider effectively extending his range out a huge amount and able to cast it regardless of fire points.

Q: What psychic powers count as psychic shooting
attacks? (p50)
A: Any psychic power with a profile like that of a
ranged weapon (i.e. has a range, strength and AP
value) and any psychic power that specifically states
that it is a psychic shooting attack.

Does lash still mention it is a "psychic shooting attack" or a "shooting attack" in the codex? I guess I am trying to understand what made Lash count as a shooting attack to begin with.

All the codex entry states, in regard to just 'what' it is, is as follows:

"A psyker may use this psychic power in the Shooting phase instead of using another ranged weapon."

So it is used in the shooting phase but it doesn't say it's a psychic shooting attack.

I am sensing an update to the CSM FAQ to state that Lash is a PSA.

At least, I hope there is one...

The old reasoning was it is PSA because it states "instead of usign ANOTHER ranged weapon" - meaning LAsh must be a ranged weapon.
Really not sure now...

I pointed this out a long time ago >_<

I meant it as a joke and example of how RaW can break the game, but looks like GW has changed it now.

It has been a PSA since 4th ed, until just now when GW seem to have narrowed the criteria for it.

There was a posted FAQ saying lash was a psa - it was either in the GW FAQ and got removed (unlikely) or
It was just in the inat. Either way, this seals the deal.

Now, as far as from a landraider, it does say it needs line of sight, so needs at least a rhino and probably still need to only move 6" to be able to use it.

Spellbound wrote:There was a posted FAQ saying lash was a psa - it was either in the GW FAQ and got removed (unlikely) or
It was just in the inat. Either way, this seals the deal.

Now, as far as from a landraider, it does say it needs line of sight, so needs at least a rhino and probably still need to only move 6" to be able to use it.

Hmmmm...if it's not a shooting attack then why would it matter how far the thing moved?

If you're just drawing LOS, it shouldn't be an issue. As a case in point, occupants of Fast vehicles can fire out without a problem if the thing moves 12".

Another good question is, if it works like this, does the caster occupy a Fire Point when using LoS in the shooting phase?

NuggzTheNinja wrote:
Hmmmm...if it's not a shooting attack then why would it matter how far the thing moved?

Because it replaces shooting. Personally I don't think it matters. I would rule that It can work at 12" move.

NuggzTheNinja wrote:
If you're just drawing LOS, it shouldn't be an issue. As a case in point, occupants of Fast vehicles can fire out without a problem if the thing moves 12".

No they can't. Fast vehicle's rule says nothing about it's occupants, only the vehicle can shoot.

NuggzTheNinja wrote:
Another good question is, if it works like this, does the caster occupy a Fire Point when using LoS in the shooting phase?

Yes, if it a shooting attack or if i requires LoS like lash does.

He doesn't shoot when the squad does... But at this point I think we're trying to abuse it, and it'll lose you friends. The sorcerer can pull enemies close, then let the champion doomsiren them. Isn't that enough? Lash got a huge buff with this, let's not try to squeeze so much out that it'll cause arguments at tournaments.

You cannot use a fire point to draw LOS unless you are shooting, so if you want to use Lash from within a vehicle you are saying it is a PSA.

nosferatu1001 wrote:You cannot use a fire point to draw LOS unless you are shooting, so if you want to use Lash from within a vehicle you are saying it is a PSA.

So effectively, it cannot be used while embarked in a vehicle now since the caster cannot draw LOS?

All in all this is pretty cool that now a sorcerer can be joined to a unit but their shooting can be at a separate target or templates after the lash. Makes sense IMO.

nosferatu1001 wrote:You cannot use a fire point to draw LOS unless you are shooting, so if you want to use Lash from within a vehicle you are saying it is a PSA.

Nevermind, next post has it.

nosferatu1001

You cannot use a fire point to draw LOS unless you are shooting, so if you want to use Lash from within a vehicle you are saying it is a PSA.

This is incorrect. This is specifically covered in the BRB FAQ.

Psykers
Q: Can a model use a psychic power that is not a Psychic Shooting Attack if it is embarked in a transport
vehicle? (p50)
A: Yes. If the power requires line of sight, this is still worked out from the vehicle’s fire points (this will
count as one model shooting through that fire point if the power is used in the Shooting phase).
If the psychic power does not require line of sight and has a range or an area of effect that is normally
measured from the model using it, these are measured from the vehicle’s hull, as explained in the Embarking
section on page 66.

Ok so you CAN use Lash while embarked but with a caveat. Even though it's not a PSA, since it requires LOS to use, it will consume a fire point of the transport.

Right. Which isn't a problem really. If you've got a 10-man squad with two special weapons, there will be no character. Anything less, you've got only one special weapon.

I suppose you could be in the rhino with plaguemarines, but in that case you pick and choose. I'm just glad my daemon princes have so much more utility now!

I just thought about it and realize that despite facing many, many Lash builds, I have never been lashed. Hmm.

But on topic, I too sense that the next FAQ for CSM will classify Lash as a PSA.

I only think this because it puts a little too much freedom on the sorceror casting while he is part of a unit. GW likes to keep unit actions pretty consistent and as has been pointed out in this thread this opens up several situations where the sorceror is acting independent of the actions of the unit he is joined.

Spellbound wrote:He doesn't shoot when the squad does... But at this point I think we're trying to abuse it, and it'll lose you friends. The sorcerer can pull enemies close, then let the champion doomsiren them. Isn't that enough? Lash got a huge buff with this, let's not try to squeeze so much out that it'll cause arguments at tournaments.

Holy Crap, how freaking refreshing is it to see a post like this on YMDC. Bravo Spellbound!

ok, nub question, where is the link for this FAQ that your referencing?

Lunchmonkey wrote:ok, nub question, where is the link for this FAQ that your referencing?

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/content/article.jsp?categoryId=1000018&pIndex=1&aId=3400019&multiPageMode=true&start=2

-Sincerely Viri

Spellbound wrote:Well, now Lash of Submission is officially not a psychic shooting attack, meaning I can lash one unit and charge another.

More importantly, a lash sorcerer joined to a template squad is useful now. Since his power isn't a shooting attack, he can use Lash to pull enemies closer, then the unit he's with can fire their templates.

Hmm, I dunno...because the Lash says that it REPLACES ranged weapon...which would imply that Lash and rest of the squad shooting still happen simultaneously.

I guess you now can Lash a different unit than what rest of the unit is shooting. So if you got two squads, you can cross-lash the targets between them...

And now you can also use Lash even if you're locked in combat.

This all presuming Lash indeed is not a PSA. A pretty strange ruling...

Backfire wrote:

Spellbound wrote:Well, now Lash of Submission is officially not a psychic shooting attack, meaning I can lash one unit and charge another.

More importantly, a lash sorcerer joined to a template squad is useful now. Since his power isn't a shooting attack, he can use Lash to pull enemies closer, then the unit he's with can fire their templates.

Hmm, I dunno...because the Lash says that it REPLACES ranged weapon...which would imply that Lash and rest of the squad shooting still happen simultaneously.

I guess you now can Lash a different unit than what rest of the unit is shooting. So if you got two squads, you can cross-lash the targets between them...

And now you can also use Lash even if you're locked in combat.

This all presuming Lash indeed is not a PSA. A pretty strange ruling...

It cannot be used while locked in combat because it replaces a shooting attack.

Except you dont need to be able to shoot to use it. See starengines - these "replace" your shooting, but if shaken (cannot fire) you may still use them.

So yes, you can run and lash and you can lash while in combat. As theyve decided it isnt a PSA. Sigh.

Running replaces your shooting, and the entire unit must run...so no you can't use lash.

You can 'replace' your shooting all you want. If you can't normally shoot than you can't cast lash.

Yes you can.

You can run if you are a walker with no ability to shoot (shaken)
You can run if you have no weapons to fire (genestealers)
You can run if you use a psychic power in the shooting phase that is NOT a PSA - Lash

But wouldn't the "instead of" imply that it replaces the options to fire a weapon or run?

I've argued that Lash was a shooting attack before but have been told that as it doesn't say so to play it that it isn't.

So if it's not a shooting attack I can target a unit and assault a different unit? Awesome! I'm still learning, where does it explain how that works so I can check myself?

You run "instead of" shooting. You use star engines "instead of" shooting.

Yet you can do both despite not being able to shoot, for whatever reason.

If it isnt a shooting attack, it isnt "shooting" and so you can assault a different unt.

I think what i'm saying is like you say, you can run instead of using a shooting attack or you can use Lash instead of a shooting attack. To me it would also imply that it would replace running as well but fair do's.

Bonza for me