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I thought this was cut and dry, but my opponent wasn't sure, so we diced off for it.

If a Rifleman Dread with Psybolt ammo shoots autocannons at a monoloth, is it resolved at S7 or S8? I thought it would be S7, because the monolith's rule states "unaugmented strength", which to me seems clear that psybolt ammo augments the strength of the autocannon to 8.

Or am I wrong about this?

That's right.

Since a bolter with psybolt ammo is no longer a defensive weapon, the case could be made that the new strength is unaugmented. There's also the whole powerfist/thunder hammer thing.

I get what youre saying - but if it DOES get the strength bonus, then whats the point of the codex referring to "unaugmented strength"?

bushido wrote:Since a bolter with psybolt ammo is no longer a defensive weapon, the case could be made that the new strength is unaugmented. There's also the whole powerfist/thunder hammer thing.

No.

+1 to strength is not allowed by any rules. Powerfists and thunderhammers only work because they were specifically pointed out in the faq

liam0404 wrote:I get what youre saying - but if it DOES get the strength bonus, then whats the point of the codex referring to "unaugmented strength"?

*shrug* In-game augmentations like psychic powers, furious charge, etc would be my guess. Stuff that doesn't permanently alter a model/weapon's profile for the duration of the game.

I don't know the phrasing for psybolt ammo offhand, but I would say until a ruling came down, it stays at S7 against Monoliths.

Out of curiosity, what did the dice tell you?

Why shoot a monolith with s8 weapons? Why aren't GK's just going to phase you around it? Also I believe I remember a ruling from years ago when my chaos could still get the tank hunter upgrade. It said that the +1s I had did mean my lascannon was s10, and did help me kill the monolith. The unsegmented likely means that FC and other rules don't apply to penning it. Shouldn't this question be covered in the FAQ? I feel that this would have come up with a rule as ambiguous as this.

CarrionBerserk wrote:Why shoot a monolith with s8 weapons? Why aren't GK's just going to phase you around it? Also I believe I remember a ruling from years ago when my chaos could still get the tank hunter upgrade. It said that the +1s I had did mean my lascannon was s10, and did help me kill the monolith. The unsegmented likely means that FC and other rules don't apply to penning it. Shouldn't this question be covered in the FAQ? I feel that this would have come up with a rule as ambiguous as this.

Tank hunter doesn't work anymore. That got faq'ed along with everything else

omerakk wrote:

CarrionBerserk wrote:Why shoot a monolith with s8 weapons? Why aren't GK's just going to phase you around it? Also I believe I remember a ruling from years ago when my chaos could still get the tank hunter upgrade. It said that the +1s I had did mean my lascannon was s10, and did help me kill the monolith. The unsegmented likely means that FC and other rules don't apply to penning it. Shouldn't this question be covered in the FAQ? I feel that this would have come up with a rule as ambiguous as this.

Tank hunter doesn't work anymore. That got faq'ed along with everything else

Then does that not answer the question? I would assume that tank hunter and the bolts function identically.

Omerakk - no, powerfists dont work because of the FAQ, they worked anyway.

The unaugmented strength of a powerfist is 2S, where S is the users strength. Remember it says unaugmented strength of the weapon, and not wielder

Furious charge also still works, as again you are striking in combat with a weapon (even a rifle butt is still a CCW, albeit a 2 handed one) and the unaugments strength of the weapon is the strength of the wielder, and it is the strength of the wielder that has changed and NOT the weapons "base" strength

With psybolt ammo the unaugmented strength of the autocannon becomes S8. Thus it is not affected by Living Metal, but still has a snowball's chance in hell to do damage to the Monolith.

My head hurts :(

Does anyone have the specific wording of Psybolt ammo handy? If it's anything like "the weapon's strength is increased by 1 for the duration of the game", then thats an augmentation isnt it?

It's not quite the same as Tank Hunter - tank hunter doesnt modify your strength, just your armour penetration roll - Psybolt ammo specifically modifies strength.

Like I said, my head hurts....

liam0404 wrote:Does anyone have the specific wording of Psybolt ammo handy? If it's anything like "the weapon's strength is increased by 1 for the duration of the game", then thats an augmentation isnt it?

"A model equipped with psybolt ammunition counts the Strength of it's shots as being one point higher than normal if it is firing one of the following weapons..."

That just seems to me to be an augmentation. Any other ideas?

I have a my buddy's extra copy of the necron codex (he bought an army from a guy and got the extra from him). I don't see the term unaugmented in the rule for living metal. Am I missing something?

I don't have my codex to hand, but there is a sentence in living metal along the lines of "Typically, a weapon firing against a monolith will always fire using its unaugmented strength."

Or something like that, I can't remember. Remember as well, that there was a stealth re-print of the necron codex, so we could be singing from completely different hymn sheets.

you know what, now that you mention it, I think I heard of the reprint. Because the one I have here says nothing about unaugmented strength. it just says attacks which count the target's armour value as being less...(brightlances) do not... weapons that get an additional armour penetration dice(meltas and so on) do no. Ordanance weapons still foll 2d6 and pick the highest.

I think the revised Necron Codex says:

"In practice, any attack against the Monolith will only roll 1D6+unmodified strength for armor penetration."

That being said, the argument will be about what does unmodified mean. The base strength of an autocannon with psybolt ammo is 8. Does that mean it's not modified?

Edit: Str 8 or Str 7(8)

I would imagine it would be similar to a plague marine and their toughness, 4(5). They're still insta-killed by S8 weapons so 4 is the unmodified toughness.

Honestly I could see it either way so I think rolling it off is equitable if you and your opponent can't agree. It's a chance at a glance vs. no chance at a glance so I can see how it would be a fairly important call.

Psybolt is a modifier, as it fits the BRB definition of one.

It does not set the S to a specific value (e.g. hunting lances on the charge) therefore it is modifying the strength of the weapon, and LM ignores that.

Don't forget that they ,in their infinite wisdom , rule monstrous creatures as 'weapons' in their definition . It kindof sods up the wielder/weapon argument.

Re Psybolts. It is an augment to the existing weapon profile. It adds Str, which makes it a modifyer, instead of being a seperate weapon (Pysbolt cannon..). It would be S 7.

Furious charge is more of a tossup. It ups the strength of the model doing the attacking, but cc weapons use the str ont he person swinging them as their str score (which is augmented bu FC). I would say it doesn't work, but i'd be ok with dicing it off.

MCs get 1D6 because the rule says 'in practice everything is S+1D6' right?

Correct.

They don't get the extra d6 they would normally get.

Mcs are covered in the "extra D6" part, so weapon / wielder is still valid.

Hmmm, I could see how this could either way. My only question would be this. The +1 to the strength is a modification to the weapons base stats that happens before the game starts, so would it still be considered an augmentation?

Yes, because it meets the BRB definition of a modification.

Icon of SLaanesh modifies your I stat, meaning that you dont get to use it for sweeping advance, for example. Ditto for bikes and instant death.

Okay, sounds good to me.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Mcs are covered in the "extra D6" part, so weapon / wielder is still valid.

Not entirely:

Quote direct from dex:

'Weapons that get additional armour penetration dice (such as chainfists, monstrous creatures or melta weapons)....'

They list monstrous creatures as weapons, which negates the statement that wielder and weapons are always different. It IS listed under the section dealing with additional penetration dice, but it still lists monstrous creatures as weapons that get additional dice for penetration, which by extension implies that non-monstrous creatures are weapons that don't get additional dice.

However MCs hit using themselves (they are both the wielder and the weapon) whereas Non-MCs always have some form of close combat weapon.