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Hola Dakka, I just finished using Dark Eldar Reaver Jetbikes for the first time and boy did they perform. Here is the unit I used:

Reaver Jetbikes - 156 Points
2 Reaver Jetbikes with Heat Lances
4 Reaver Jetbikes with Splinter Rifles

Now I took two groups of these guys and one got slaughtered first turn by a drop pod Furioso with a Frag Cannon but the second was unscathed. They proceeded to explode the Dreadnought with their Heat Lances, decapitate three tactical marines with bladevanes, melt two more tactical marines, wreck a rhino, and take Astorath down to 1 wound. For a 156 point unit that is pretty rockin'.

My idea with the bikes was to hold them behind cover until something juicy became vulnerable, bladevane/heat lance it, and then repeat. What I found was the 36" move, coupled with flat-out Venoms and Razorwings allowed them to completely dominate the field and control how my opponent moved his units. The reason I posted this is I'm curious if this is the optimal way to use Reaver Jetbikes. It seems pretty good as they performed so well but it could have been a fluke. Any tips or comments about Reaver Jetbikes?

That was pretty much the only way to use them mainly because you can get that kind of firepower for less points they usually should stay behind cover until they can kill something and make sure what you kill is worth it because usually an enemy will kill the reavers when they are vulnerable

I have used them in four games, and my results weren't as good as yours at all. I had them kitted up similar to yours but the other guy would take them out fairly quickly. Sometimes they would last a few turns, but even then, they wouldn't do that much damage, and end up being a waste of points. I replaced their niche with a Razorwing, and had much better luck with em.

Yes they are very solid units, I wish I could find a way to fit 3 units of them + 3 units of Trueborn into my list.

@bob501. Thats definitely not the only way to use them, and they are easily the best source of Heat Lances. Blaster Trueborn may be slightly cheaper, more flexible (S8 for IDing infantry etc + the transport) and have longer range, but Heat Lances actually beat them against vehicles if you can get into half range. Its not a trivial 'if', but it certainly doesn't make them a bad unit by any means.

6 with 2 Heat Lances is probably the most common configuration, 3 with a single Heat Lance isn't really reliable enough as a tank hunter and 9 with 3 Heat Lances is getting expensive and requires the list to be built around them a bit more (Haemonculi to get them a Pain Token and then that unit is pretty nasty, 3 fast long range meltaguns which can JSJ happily into cover, still packs solid anti infantry and is solid in assault). I don't see any reason to take them with Blasters, because there are definitely cheaper options available for them and Heat Lances mesh much better with the 12" move + jump back of the Reavers. The Bladevane upgrades are to taste really, it might be fun, but boosting them around running people over all game won't get as much out of them as slowing down and shooting and assaulting some stuff so there isn't much point going overboard on those upgrades. The Arena Champ is probably only required for the larger 9 strong units which can do with the Ld boost and are more likely to be assaulting to finish things off.

I see them as a strong 'anti-Imperial Guard' unit. You can flank and melt tanks, or slice through unit after unit. As guard consist of those two extremes, heavy vehicles and lots of light infantry you can get a lot of mileage with jetbikes against them.

Any unit with that much flexibility becomes a fairly safe option for lists if you know your facing a guard opponent.

I haven't had much offensive luck with them, their kill total is just 1 IG squad, 1 kroot squad, 1 chimera, and 1 rhino so far, in like 6 games, but they do more than their fair share of catching bullets. They are VERY durable if they get a pain token, and keep turbo boosting around. Most of the games where I've played them ive gotten #6 drug, killed a unit first turn, or had a harmie with hexriffle sitting around to join the squad first turn.

I've also been really good about getting terrain to hide in after shooting, using the 6 inch move to jump into terrain. Sure its dangerous, but they have skilled rider, and I haven't lost one yet to that.

Just played a pair of games with them today and they were pretty good. The first game they exploded a Death Company Dread that podded on turn one, bladevaned a pair of assault marines, exploded a Dakka Pred, and then actually got the final shot on a sanguinary priest to table the Blood Angels Force. In the second game they exploded a Multi-Melta Dread that podded on turn one, exploded the drop pod on turn two, and then went on to lose a few bikes to shooting, a bike to dangerous terrain (even with skilled rider) and explode a rhino in the same turn killing another biker. They then failed leadership and ended the game under half strength and running giving my opponent his only killpoint.

The Reaver Jetbikes once again exceeded my expectations and after three games with them I'm starting to think that they are the catalyst for a speedy "mech" Dark Eldar list like mine. So far the only real trouble (dangerous terrain isn't much of one as I've lost one bike in three games after taking well over 40 dangerous terrain tests in that time) is judging that sweet spot between 6" and 9" with heat lances. If you are within 6" you risk killing your own bikes with a large explosion but outside of 9" and you don't get your 2D6 armor penetration. All in all, the Reavers have been the biggest surprise as a newbie Dark Eldar player (though 12 shot Venoms are a very close second) and I have yet to run into any major issues with them.

This thread makes me a bit sad. ><

SonicPara: If the bikes were the only killpoint your enemy got, it isn't because your bikes are spectacular, its because your opponent had a bad list to play against you.

In the old codex, Reaver Jetbikes could take 2 blasters per three bikes, had a better armour save, and special weapons were cheaper. In the new codex, special weapons are more expensive, their armour save is worse, but they have more options.

In the old codex, justifying reaver units in a competitive setting was virtually a losing effort. In the new codex, its even worse.

Buildings a competitive army is about finding and utilizing the most efficient means of achieving a task. Within the Dark Eldar codex, Reavers have to be weighed against the rest of the codex for utility. Even with minimally sized units, you can flesh out a 2,000 point army of specialized units without getting around to consider what you want to do in your Fast Attack options. Beyond 2,000 points, your FoC is probably full except for fast attack - which is where you'd come back to analyze what you want to do with your fast attack options.

You have to have troops in 40k. Wyches, wracks, warriors, hellions. Lets say you're building a warrior kabal.

Can reavers kill infantry more efficiently than 5 warriors in a dual-splinter cannon venom? No. So you'll flesh these efficient units out before reavers.
Can reavers kill tanks more efficiently than triple dark lance ravagers? No. So you'll flesh out these efficient units before reavers.
Can reavers kill tanks more efficiently than trueborn? No. So you'll flesh out these efficient units before reavers.

And then...having invested your points into efficiency, there's none left over for Reavers.

Kick it up in points, you have fast attack options left.

Reavers vs. Scourges vs. Hellions vs. Beast Packs

Do some analysis on your long, medium, and short range firepower, what priority you're going to be addressing threats in, and you'll probably conclude that the only department that needs shoring up is counter-assault and dealing with deep-striking and close range units that massed splinter rifle fire isn't going to obliterate.

Enter the Beast Pack with invulnerable saves scattered around massed volume of attacks, half of which are rending.

Add force multipliers to taste, and you're looking for points to trim off again. In other army archetypes, they fit in even less.

Can you use Reaver Jetbikes? Absolutely. Can you win games with them? Absolutely. Are they a weakness? Absolutely. As a Dark Eldar player myself, I'm fond of seeing Reaver Jetbikes on the table across from me mixed up in a mechanized army. My biggest problem is being able to open vehicles so that my splinter cannons can go to work. Reaver Jetbikes increase my shooting efficiency by keeping my guns going for a turn where they otherwise might not have been as effective.

There's a suitable battle report for an example in my signature - Game Four of the Alamo GT.

This thread makes you sad?

For the sake of clarity I'll list the army lists from these last two games I mentioned. If this needs to be moved into battle reports because of it then so be it, though I won't be giving many further details on the happenings of the games.

Game 1: Blood Angels vs Dark Eldar - Spearhead Seize Ground (4 Objectives)

Blood Angels: 1500 Points

HQ: Commander Dante

Troops: 5x Sanguinary Guard
Troops: 10x Assault Marines (meltagun, power weapons sarge)
Troops: 5x Death Company (Infernus Pistol, Drop Pod)
Troops: Death Company Dreadnought (Blood Talons, Heavy Flamer, Storm Bolter, Magna Grapple, Drop Pod)

Elites: 2x Sanguinary Priest (1x Jump Pack)

Heavy Support: Devastators (2x Missile, 2x Lascannon) with Rhino

Dark Eldar: 1500 Points

HQ: Archon (Blaster, Venom Blade)

Elites: 4x Trueborn (4x Blaster) in Venom (2x Splinter Cannon)

Troops: 5x Warriors (1x Blaster) in Venom (2x Splinter Cannon, Chain-Snares)
Troops: 5x Warriors (1x Blaster) in Venom (2x Splinter Cannon, Chain-Snares)
Troops: 5x Warriors (1x Blaster) in Venom (2x Splinter Cannon, Chain-Snares)
Troops: 5x Warriors (1x Blaster) in Venom (2x Splinter Cannon, Chain-Snares)
Troops: 5x Warriors (1x Blaster) in Venom (2x Splinter Cannon, Chain-Snares)
Troops: 5x Warriors (1x Blaster) in Venom (2x Splinter Cannon, Chain-Snares)

Fast Attack: 6x Reavers (2x Heat Lance)

Heavy Support: Razorwing Jetfighter (Flickerfield)
Heavy Support: Razorwing Jetfighter (Flickerfield)

The game ended in victory as the Dark Eldar tabled the Blood Angels but Dark Eldar also had 3 objetives at the time.


Game 2: Space Wolves vs Dark Eldar - Pitched Battle Annihilation

Space Wolves: 1000 Points (8 Kill Points)

HQ: Njal Stormcaller (Terminator Armour)

Elites: Dreadnought (Drop Pod)

Troops: 10x Grey Hunters (2x Meltagun, Power Weapon) in Rhino (2x Storm Bolter)
Troops: 10x Grey Hunters (2x Meltagun, Power Weapon) in Rhino (2x Storm Bolter)

Heavy Support: Long Fangs (3x Missile, 2x Heavy Bolter)

Dark Eldar: 1000 Points (10 Kill Points)

HQ: Archon (Blaster, Venom Blade)

Elites: 4x Trueborn (4x Blaster) in Venom (2x Splinter Cannon, Chain-Snares)

Troops: 5x Warriors (1x Blaster) in Venom (2x Splinter Cannon, Chain-Snares)
Troops: 5x Warriors (1x Blaster) in Venom (2x Splinter Cannon, Chain-Snares)

Fast Attack: 6x Reavers (2x Heat Lances)

Heavy Support: Razorwing Jetfighter (Flickerfield, 1x Necrotoxin Missile)
Heavy Support: Razorwing Jetfighter (Flickerfield, 1x Necrotoxin Missile)

Game ended with a 6 to 1 victory for Dark Eldar.



The Blood Angels list was pretty weak and ended up coming in via Deep Strike one at a time so all of my blasters and the Reaver's heat lances were free to chew them up but the Space Wolves list is far from bad. The inclusion of Njal was likely a mistake and the suicide dreadnought would have been better equipped with an assault cannon or heavy flamer but his troops and his long fangs were solid.

I think that the reason I have had success with Reavers is because I have loads of firepower in my 7 Venoms and accompanying 11 blasters not to mention the 4 Dark Lances and 8 large blasts that the two Razorwings bring to the table. All of this firepower makes the jetbikes less of a threat, especially in annihilation (where I thought I would struggle) where you have targets like the Archon's Venom presenting three kill points in one target. I also tend to play the Jetbikes defensively, hiding them behind a wall until the right opportunity arises to jump out and heat lance something or to blaze across the table and cut some infantry up with bladevanes (though this is the less desirable use of the two in my opinion). Usually once this happens I have landed myself within striking distance of some target (usually a Predator or other long range combat tank) which attempts to shred the Reavers but I haven't lost more than 2 at once (to a Dakka Pred no less) thanks to the 3+ cover save. In my next turn I'm free to heat lance the piece of armor while my main force deals with whatever is crashing down on them.

I know that Ravagers are better/cheaper than Razorwings and that Reavers can be easily replaced with something else but my infatuation with aircraft means that I have fun just fielding so many things that fly, even if I lose though I haven't yet which to be honest is a surprise. I didn't expect armour 10 to be as durable as it is though I suppose this is in part due to target saturation for my opponent. Even then though, I don't see how any of the other Fast Attack options would better suit my army. I have enough venoms to laugh at armour saves and even feel no pain (84 shots from my 7 Venoms), I have 11 Blasters so anything getting close or drop podding isn't living more than a turn (killed Dread and Drop Pod on turn 1, Death Company and drop pod on turn 2, Dante and Sanguinary Guard on turn 3), and I have Razorwings which bring a pair of Dark Lances for a pinch of long range AT. Long range AT is clearly my weakness but with the speed of Venoms and the fact that I don't play tournaments (but I still like to win) I'm not so sure that I need more of it. If I'm playing a static force I can rush forward with the Venoms and present more targets then they could possibly take down. Turn 2 and I'm on them. If I'm playing a charging army, I castle up and whittle them down on their way to me and when they get there I turbo-boost/flat out right over them and hit them with all of the chain-snares/bladevanes. Sure Scourges might bring more firepower for cheaper but they are too slow to keep up with the Venoms and can't move 36" in one turn like a unit of Reavers. I have no interest in Beasts so they are out and Helions would seem woefully out of place in a force based entirely on shooting. Sure they could be used to buy time while the mounted infantry flies to safety but with the speed of the Venoms the only thing that can catch them are fleeting Jump Infantry.

I don't doubt your expertise and I value your advice as I know you are qualified to give it but I'm honestly not seeing a better/more fun fit for the way I'm playing and collecting Dark Eldar. If there is something else (other then more Trueborn in Venoms) that would be a better fit and maintain the aesthetic then color me interested!

Those army lists you fought against are terrible....

Spellbound wrote:Those army lists you fought against are terrible....

I agree about the Blood Angels but I don't think that the Space Wolves list was that bad. As I said before Njal and the Dread were mistakes but the Long Fangs and the two Grey Hunters Packs were good. The game ended with such a lopsided score because I hid behind a landing pad the majority of the game so that his Living Lightning and Long Fangs wouldn't blow the heck out of my AV10 vehicles.

Njal and the dread are close to 450 points of mistake - that's like 1/3 the army.

Spellbound wrote:Njal and the dread are close to 450 points of mistake - that's like 1/3 the army.

I was JUST about to say that. Beat me to the punch :/

Spellbound wrote:Njal and the dread are close to 450 points of mistake - that's like 1/3 the army.

Yes and while they were mistakes it isn't like he simply threw away those points and fielded only 550 of his points. Njal's terminator armour ensured that the long fangs took 6 Monoscythe Missiles, 2 Necrotoxin Missiles, 4 Dark Lances, and 36 splinter cannon shots over 2 turns of shooting to destroy. The Dread was pretty useless but that Multi-Melta and the Storm Bolter are still very capable of bricking a Venom and bagging a kill point. Fielding Njal and the Dread put him at a significant disadvantage against my Dark Eldar which is entirely speedy small units with Darklight Weapons but they aren't the soul reason why he lost. If the landing pad wasn't on the table (he built the table) I would have been in the open. Thanks to the landing pad the Long Fangs and Njal only got one round of shooting and it was after they were cut down to about 50% by a Razorwing's Missile Salvo and Dark Lances.

Regardless, the point I'm making with these two games is that Reavers have been great when used defensively and as a reactionary force. Dash, in your Game 4 batrep (sorry to hear about all of the ugliness that happened. I understand Caldera's complaint about the extra large Venom but it doesn't excuse his behavior) Caldera blindly advanced the Reavers, albeit in terrain, and allowed them to get shot by your horde of Venoms. If he had hid them behind a wall or something and played a defensive game then the Reavers serve as an extremely hard counter unit thanks to the Heat Lances. I see them as somewhat analogous to Rough Riders but their power is AT instead of Anti-Infantry Assault. Now whether your Darklight Storm would have wiped a defensive Dark Eldar force is another matter (though I think the answer would be yes) my theory is that Reaver Jetbikes can play a pivotal reaction role for Dark Eldar.

Blood Angels: 1500 Points

HQ: Commander Dante

Troops: 5x Sanguinary Guard
Troops: 10x Assault Marines (meltagun, power weapons sarge)
Troops: 5x Death Company (Infernus Pistol, Drop Pod)
Troops: Death Company Dreadnought (Blood Talons, Heavy Flamer, Storm Bolter, Magna Grapple, Drop Pod)

Elites: 2x Sanguinary Priest (1x Jump Pack)

Heavy Support: Devastators (2x Missile, 2x Lascannon) with Rhino

This list is horrible and has no synergy. A lone Rhino deploys and and a pod comes in turn 1? That sounds terrible.

HQ: Njal Stormcaller (Terminator Armour)

Elites: Dreadnought (Drop Pod)

Troops: 10x Grey Hunters (2x Meltagun, Power Weapon) in Rhino (2x Storm Bolter)
Troops: 10x Grey Hunters (2x Meltagun, Power Weapon) in Rhino (2x Storm Bolter)

Heavy Support: Long Fangs (3x Missile, 2x Heavy Bolter)

This list is even worse. A lone podding Dred? Njal at 1k? Njal can't even fit in one of the Rhinos. Does he just walk? Fangs with 2 heavy bolters? This list is trash.

I don't think these lists are any kind of look at how Reavers would perform against competitive opponents. Against good competition I don't particularly like Reavers. Maybe if they were cheaper or could take 2 specials on a three biker squad I could see them. As it stands it's simply too many points. To be honest, I think the entire Dark Eldar fast attack section is pretty mediocre. Hellions need a 15+ squad with the Baron to have any chance of doing anything. Beasts haven't worked well for me. The bad leadership can lead to lots of trouble. They have to really pick and choose their battles. Scourges seem a bit out of place. In a meched up list they simply stand out as easy kills. Heat lances require a risky deep strike and haywire blasters are mediocre.

That being said, I believe the other FA choices can still be justified easier than Reavers. If they were 17 points or could take 2 heat lances on 3 maybe.

Wow, that's a very very narrow view of things Dash, you seem to be completely focusing on how you/your list plays (and plays against Reavers) rather than looking at the codex as a whole and the huge number of potential builds (not purely unit vs unit matchups). I've said it in plenty of other threads, but the Dark Eldar codex is probably the most flexible codex around and aside from Mandrakes discounting anything in the codex as weak or uncompetitive is crazy.

In any case, at close range 2 Heat Lances are more effective against vehicles than 3 Dark Lances from a Ravager or even 4 Blaster Trueborn. Yes you need to be in close and they are slightly more expensive if you ignore the Venom (which you can't really), but you are fast and have the assault jump as well which balances things out. You also ignore the fact that they are decent against infantry (not better than a Venom obviously but much better than Trueborn) and are good supporting assault units (they are still Wyches). If you think you need the anti tank firepower then clearly they are a better choice than Beasts (say you have 3 Razorwings or 6 Venoms or massed Wracks/Wyches/Bloodbrides/Incubi/Grotesques etc etc). On a more direct comparison with Trueborn, since they are probably the most direct competition, factoring in survivability is pretty important as well. Against a good opponent Trueborn are very rarely going to fire more than once after they disembark, and if they aren't disembarking shaking a Venom isn't hard and your range is limited. Assuming you are going first Trueborn can either move 12", disembark and fire well into the enemy deployment zone, but then probably die. Alternatively they move less/don't disembark (but won't be firing because its impossible to have range) and either try and fire from inside the vehicle turn 2 (if they can) or have a similar situation to before where they disembark, possibly kill something and likely die. Reavers on the other hand can either move up to 36" to try and run people over and threaten anything on the board turn 2, or more likely can move 12" up, take a long ranged Heat Lance shot and then jump into cover to go for a turn 2 close ranged shot. They are far more likely to live for a turn (and future turns for that matter) than the Trueborn, cover, a chance of FNP to start (and more chance of getting it than Trueborn because of their anti infantry ability), the jump back to avoid retaliation and the fact that only 2 out of the 6 matter put them well ahead of the Trueborn in this regard.

@JGrand. Do you realise how broken Reavers would be if you could take 2 Heat Lances per 3 guys? That would basically make them faster tougher Fire Dragons (with a couple of ablative wound) which still have an anti infantry ability and some assault punch. It would break the game just as fast as Fire Dragons as troops would.
Hellions need the Baron, but that makes them troops so discussing them with the Fast Attack options is kinda pointless. Either way you don't need massive units of them anyway, they are Warriors and Wyches rolled into one mobile package (just minus the anti tank options of Haywires or Blasters, which is the main turn off).

JGrand wrote:This list is horrible and has no synergy. A lone Rhino deploys and and a pod comes in turn 1? That sounds terrible.

I agree, the only way the list would have worked remotely well is if he got all of his deep strikers in on turn two. Still, I would just turbo boost/flat out as far away as possible and shoot everyone to death. This player just started Blood Angels and is trying a little bit of everything to figure out what will work properly.

JGrand wrote:This list is even worse. A lone podding Dred? Njal at 1k? Njal can't even fit in one of the Rhinos. Does he just walk? Fangs with 2 heavy bolters? This list is trash.

I disagree, I think that his Grey Hunters were spot on and Heavy Bolters can be quite effective against Dark Eldar. He deployed Njal with the Long Fangs to anchor them but at that point a Rune Priest in Terminator Armor does the exact same job for 160 points less. If he dropped Njal, the Dreadnought, and the extra Storm Bolters on his Rhinos he could have changed his long fangs to 4x Missile 1x Heavy Bolter, taken a duplicate squad, given them basic Razorbacks, and taken a pair of Terminator Armour Rune Priests with Living Lightning/Murderous Hurricane and Living Lightning/Tempest's Wrath. That would have been a much better list but the one he fielded is far better than the Blood Angels list.

JGrand wrote:I don't think these lists are any kind of look at how Reavers would perform against competitive opponents. Against good competition I don't particularly like Reavers. Maybe if they were cheaper or could take 2 specials on a three biker squad I could see them. As it stands it's simply too many points. To be honest, I think the entire Dark Eldar fast attack section is pretty mediocre. Hellions need a 15+ squad with the Baron to have any chance of doing anything. Beasts haven't worked well for me. The bad leadership can lead to lots of trouble. They have to really pick and choose their battles. Scourges seem a bit out of place. In a meched up list they simply stand out as easy kills. Heat lances require a risky deep strike and haywire blasters are mediocre.

That being said, I believe the other FA choices can still be justified easier than Reavers. If they were 17 points or could take 2 heat lances on 3 maybe.

I agree that I can't consider Reavers as incredible after three games against poor lists but I also don't believe that you can discount them completely. They still weathered fire, blew things up with their Heat Lances, and decapitated Marines with Bladevanes. A better list would certainly see them better contained but judging by how they lack staying power but can hit very hard I can see their potential as a reactionary force even at their current points cost. I do believe that they are overcosted but I also believe that there is a niche for them to fill in a Venom/Razorwing army like mine. This thread was mostly a response to their insane destructive power and victory point total they added up in that first game. I wanted to see if there were any other ways to play them or if the defensive/reactionary role is their optimal position. I'm starting to think I have them about right as far as Reavers go though as no one has bothered to say otherwise.

I agree that I can't consider Reavers as incredible after three games against poor lists but I also don't believe that you can discount them completely. They still weathered fire, blew things up with their Heat Lances, and decapitated Marines with Bladevanes. A better list would certainly see them better contained but judging by how they lack staying power but can hit very hard I can see their potential as a reactionary force even at their current points cost. I do believe that they are overcosted but I also believe that there is a niche for them to fill in a Venom/Razorwing army like mine. This thread was mostly a response to their insane destructive power and victory point total they added up in that first game. I wanted to see if there were any other ways to play them or if the defensive/reactionary role is their optimal position. I'm starting to think I have them about right as far as Reavers go though as no one has bothered to say otherwise.

The huge problem I have is that in an entirely mech list you give all of your opponents anti infantry which is otherwise doing nothing until the skimmers get popped something to shoot. Even if they turbo boost killing 2 to make them take a morale check on mediocre leadership isn't hard. A squad of 10 Space Marines can easily put 6 wounds on them. Two should die to that. And there is a chance they could be the heat lances which are the only things making the unit worthwhile. Then they take a leadership test that they have a decent chance to fail.

I just don't think they are all that great.

Your list is an extremely competitive list with a lot of of MSUs albeit with a bit of fat on it. The other lists were garbage.

And Dash's view isn't narrow. He just makes cut throat, lean lists that are attempting to be the best they can be given their current codex. Reaver Jetbikes are fun and can be effective when finessed in the right way. He is simply stating that there are more competitive choices. And he stated those options earlier in his post. Its like a discussion I started about biker boyz. Sure, they're fun, and can be effective if used correctly, but there are so many better choices in terms of the competitive nature of orks that they really shouldnt make it into many tournament builds.

Now, if as you stated before, are collecting DE for fun as well as competitive play, then go ahead and get you some jetbikes. It seems you enjoy using them, so you should use them and you obviously arent an incompetent general. And even if they do end up flopping for you and getting owned in a game or two, you have a solid foundation to work out of, so it shouldnt be too hard to fight back from their loss.

Powerguy wrote:

In any case, at close range 2 Heat Lances are more effective against vehicles than 3 Dark Lances from a Ravager or even 4 Blaster Trueborn.

How do you define more effective?

3 Lance shots are actually more effective at getting a roll on the damage chart by about 5%. The Lances are slightly more likely to be a pen (and they are AP1) so in that sense I might agree with you except that I think the 3 lances being 40 points cheaper and much longer range more than makes up for that.

However 4 blaster shots are better in every category (% to pen and % to glance), cheaper and have better range.

Sonic....as others have pointed out, the armies you played against were...much more uncompetitive than yours. Much.

I don't put my Dark Eldar on the table against people anymore unless it is a Grand Tournament, or preparation for a GT. I don't even play them in local / semi-local tournaments anymore, because they are too gruesome.

If your local scene is throwing armies like that at you....why not check out the larger tournament scene? Alternatively, you can jump on Vassal (vassal40k.info) and find yourself a 2D 40k game against people from around the world!

Dashofpepper wrote:Sonic....as others have pointed out, the armies you played against were...much more uncompetitive than yours. Much.

I don't put my Dark Eldar on the table against people anymore unless it is a Grand Tournament, or preparation for a GT. I don't even play them in local / semi-local tournaments anymore, because they are too gruesome.

If your local scene is throwing armies like that at you....why not check out the larger tournament scene? Alternatively, you can jump on Vassal (vassal40k.info) and find yourself a 2D 40k game against people from around the world!

I've never played in a Tournament and I built my Venoms before owning the codex so I guess I just got lucky. I only decided to add the second Splinter Cannon because I thought it looked better, lol. I'll be sure to play in the next tournament in my area but I won't fare well at some of the soft scores like painting, I can't stand painting at all!

aggie0642 wrote:

Powerguy wrote:

In any case, at close range 2 Heat Lances are more effective against vehicles than 3 Dark Lances from a Ravager or even 4 Blaster Trueborn.

How do you define more effective?

3 Lance shots are actually more effective at getting a roll on the damage chart by about 5%. The Lances are slightly more likely to be a pen (and they are AP1) so in that sense I might agree with you except that I think the 3 lances being 40 points cheaper and much longer range more than makes up for that.

However 4 blaster shots are better in every category (% to pen and % to glance), cheaper and have better range.

More effective = better chance of getting a wrecked or explodes result. 4 Blasters will obviously average more glances and more pens (only slightly though) because there are more shots being fired (obviously if you take the 3rd Heat Lance everything swings massively in the Reavers favour, but that's pricey to say the least), but the AP1 bonus and the increased chance to pen make a big difference. With Ravagers/Dark Lances you can get away with only stunning but Blaster units which only get disabling results won't have a great life expectancy. Trueborn with Blasters are only cheaper if you don't factor in the transport, which actually makes them slightly more expensive in most case. They definitely aren't better in every category, Reavers are much more mobile, more likely to kill armour, often more survivable, have a better anti infantry ability (discounting the Venom) and pack a punch in assault to name a few.

I should make it clear that I'm not suggesting Trueborn are worse than Reavers, they are both equally viable in a competitive list. Heat Lances function like meltaguns and work well if you have enough Dark Lance suppression fire, Blasters work well if you are pushing the Darklight or MSU spam or are short on points (because they are the second cheapest source of Darklight shots).

Interesting discussion. I was originally quite close to Dash in terms of views on the Reavers. I loved the models, but when I did my proper army list I realised that there wasn't an optimal role for them. But last night a good example of their worth occured.

I'm playing a 1750 point game soon against Grey Knights. His army is basically

HQ (Crowe?)

Vindicare Assassin
5 Paladins

6 Purifiers, Razorback
6 Purifiers, Razorback
10 Purifiers, Rhino

Dreadnought, TL Autocannon
Dreadnought, TL Autocannon

My army was, I thought

4 Haemonculi

4 Blasters, Venom
4 Blasters, Venom
4 Blasters, Venom

7 Wych, Hekatrix, Agoniser, Raider
7 Wych, Hekatrix, Agoniser, Raider
7 Wych, Hekatrix, Agoniser, Raider
7 Wych, Hekatrix, Agoniser, Raider

Ravager
Ravager
Ravager

Now, I was fairly confident about this matchup, and was weighing up a fairly aggressive approach to popping his Rhino's, and keeping the Dreadnoughts stunned. But - I was concered that without a bit of luck on the vehicle damage chart I fail to successfully pop the transports and stun the Dreadnoughts, and on his turn the marines get out, and chew up everything in front of them. I need to get Wych charges off; and ideally I need to reduce those 6 man squads to 4-5 before the charge.

But then I checked my army list, and remembered I have another 2 units

3 Reavers, Heatlance
3 Reavers, Heatlance

At 77 points each they're an incredibly mobile way to get some melta. They might be left out after that first strike - hopefully in cover, but even then the 2 extra units just makes me feel that more confident about tabling the GKs. He only has 7 units which will be shooting, the Reavers push me up to 12! So given that in my turn I should be stunning the dreads, and hopefully opening at least 1 Rhino, there's just too much for him to damage. The other option, which I haven't toyed with before, is to JSJ out of line of sight; either way, it keeps stuff on the table.

I agree that I wouldn't use big squads of them, the bladevanes are good fun, but I can't see them being anywhere near as effective as just a bunch of kabalite firing out of a Raider.

Borboski: You do know stunning or shaking GKs without the ability to stop fortitude basically does nothing, right?

[Googles]

No, I didn't know what fortitude was! So they are *all* going to have fortitude, and my only option is to keep shooting until I actually immobilise? Does that render haywire grenades pointless?

borboski wrote:[Googles]

No, I didn't know what fortitude was! So they are *all* going to have fortitude, and my only option is to keep shooting until I actually immobilise? Does that render haywire grenades pointless?

:-p

borboski wrote:[Googles]

No, I didn't know what fortitude was! So they are *all* going to have fortitude, and my only option is to keep shooting until I actually immobilise? Does that render haywire grenades pointless?

Almost everything has Fortitude (Psychic test at Ld10 to remove shaken/stunned), I think its just Chimeras which don't have it. Most of the time you still play the same as normal, shake a vehicle then move on to the next equal biggest threat, i.e once you shake his first Rifleman Dread you might as well shoot the next one (assuming no cover etc), because 1 shaken Dread and 1 damaged Dread is better than 1 damaged Dread even with Fortitude (he still has to pass that test). Fortitude just means you have to come back to shaken targets and try and completely disable them if they are going to be a major threat next turn.

It renders Haywire Grenade Launchers almost completely useless, but actual Haywire Grenades implies you are in combat. They are still decent at killing or at least badly damaging vehicles you can catch stationary, and I would happily throw a unit of Wyches into a Rifleman Dread (ideally immobile/damaged first) because its going to stop 4 S8 shots coming back at me.

Powerguy wrote:

aggie0642 wrote:

Powerguy wrote:

In any case, at close range 2 Heat Lances are more effective against vehicles than 3 Dark Lances from a Ravager or even 4 Blaster Trueborn.

How do you define more effective?

3 Lance shots are actually more effective at getting a roll on the damage chart by about 5%. The Lances are slightly more likely to be a pen (and they are AP1) so in that sense I might agree with you except that I think the 3 lances being 40 points cheaper and much longer range more than makes up for that.

However 4 blaster shots are better in every category (% to pen and % to glance), cheaper and have better range.

More effective = better chance of getting a wrecked or explodes result. 4 Blasters will obviously average more glances and more pens (only slightly though) because there are more shots being fired (obviously if you take the 3rd Heat Lance everything swings massively in the Reavers favour, but that's pricey to say the least), but the AP1 bonus and the increased chance to pen make a big difference. With Ravagers/Dark Lances you can get away with only stunning but Blaster units which only get disabling results won't have a great life expectancy. Trueborn with Blasters are only cheaper if you don't factor in the transport, which actually makes them slightly more expensive in most case. They definitely aren't better in every category, Reavers are much more mobile, more likely to kill armour, often more survivable, have a better anti infantry ability (discounting the Venom) and pack a punch in assault to name a few.

I should make it clear that I'm not suggesting Trueborn are worse than Reavers, they are both equally viable in a competitive list. Heat Lances function like meltaguns and work well if you have enough Dark Lance suppression fire, Blasters work well if you are pushing the Darklight or MSU spam or are short on points (because they are the second cheapest source of Darklight shots).

That's true, they are better at getting a wrecked or exploded results when in melta range by a very small margin (less than 5%). If you factor in the transport then Trueborn Blasters are way better. Yes it cost's 20 pts more, but I get 12 splinter cannon shots (at a different target than blaster's). I also get an AV 10 and 5++ save vehicle to protect the trueborn. Not great but I would take that over T4 with a 5+ save any day. I would say speed is equal (both can move 12' and shoot or flat out 24'). Blaster's always have the advantage in range. Blaster's are also better against heavy infantry (Terminator's)/

So considering I have to take a weaker unit (in the sense that it's easier to kill) into melta range to be more effective and I lose the dual splinter cannons, I will still take the Trueborn.

I have ran reavers and they can be good at times but very few people would agree that Reavers are equally viable in a competitive list. In fact I don't think I have ever seen Reavers in a tournament, only FLGS games.

On a side note why not take scourges? Five scourges with two lances is cheaper and they have better armor. If I had points to put into a FA slot they would probably go to scourges over reavers.

Powerguy wrote: They definitely aren't better in every category, Reavers are much more mobile, more likely to kill armour, often more survivable, have a better anti infantry ability (discounting the Venom) and pack a punch in assault to name a few.

If Reaver Jetbikes are close enough to the opponent to make effective use of their Heat Lances (within 9"), their survivability becomes some number approaching a limit equal to zero.

T4 with a 5+ save in a unit not likely to exceed six models isn't going to survive one round of rapid firing from a Tactical Squad or equivalent. It'll also die to a charge from any even mediocre assault squad.

The big problem with Heat Lances is how close you have to be. With the exception of the Talos, all the models that can carry the HL are not terribly survivable to return fire.

Recently, when I've been forced by points limits to field FA slot choices, I've opted for Scourges with Haywire Blasters. They have decent mobility as jump troops and are easy to get in a location with a cover save. They're not great for killing vehicles, but do a pretty good job of keeping 'em from shooting at me while I focus my kill shots on those vehicles I need dead. Lastly, the 24" range lets me stay back a bit while other portions of my army get up in my opponent's face.