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Now, I've never used shockprows before and I was considering them because I grow tired of random Haemonculi trinkets that don't do anything (stupid Casket of Fail) Anyhow, the shockprow is almost a full inch longer than the normal piece on a raider, this can be most beneficial in game, as every inch can make a difference in getting that crucial charge or even helping to multicharge more than one target with your wyches. So, before I put this on the table and start acting a fool I would like to clarify any stupidity I may stumble into. What do you think? Is the Shock Prow a usable piece of the hull? Or, and upgrade like a dozer blade that no longer counts as part of the hull?

It should fall into that category of 'not hull' along side things like guns/flags/dozerblades/decorative items/etc.

-cgmckenzie

really? i thought the plow and dozerblades would of been counted o.O because like, ramming? you need to be an inch inside of someone... hehe xD... before doing damage? o.o i would of thought that the'd be part of the hull o.O thats how ive always played it

In my games we count it as part of the hull because it can be used to ram vehicles.
As such, ranges can be measured to it, it can be used to establish LOS, etc.
YMMV however and it's best to go over this with your opponent before beginning the game.

No, dozerblades are specifically not part of the hull of a vehicle, a la measuring distances to vehicles in the BGB.

-cgmckenzie

It gets a bit sticky with Deffrollas, Dozer blades and Rams.

Measuring distances is to the hull, but i'd say that for ramming purposes any part of the vehicle that makes contact counts, as a 'how would you play it'.

I don't have a bucket of RAW to back this, but it seems to be a reasonable way to play it to avoid longwinded and vicious mudslingin.. i mean debates.

Strict RAW-wise i think it would have to be the hull making contact, which can be a bit hard to figure with some vehicles.

Just more grey area in the rules. Nothing new here. Make up a rule for it and discuss it with your opponent. *shrug* All you can do.

Hmmm. . .this doesn't answer my question at all I can already see having debates about this with other players. The normal, non-ram prow, is part of the hull. People use it all the time to draw LoS too and to get ranges. I imagine people will be using the shock prow for the same purposes. In that case, I don't have any qualms about using it to get an extra almost-inch. It's clearly not decorative as well, it just swaps the normal prow out unlike dozer blades which are just a silly add on. I must ponder.

It depends on if you measure distance from it. For my Deffrollas and on the rare occasion I put Dozer Blades on a Sisters Rhino I just tell my opponent at the start of the game that I count them as part of the hull for measurement, movement and disembarking purposes. It gets rid of the stupid "you can't get off there since no 2 models can occupy the same space" argument. On the downside, though it isn't an issue with a Raider since they have the same AV it does give your opponent more room to get a side shot on the lower AV.

Technically, ramming only matters when the vehicles make contact, so a Shock Prow would give you that extra inch. However, many people have a problem with playing this way since Deff-Rollas (even the standard, non-custom ones) are huge and give a massive distance advantage, for example allowing you to ram a vehicle and stay out of assault range of a unit that can only reach the "rolla" part (because assaults require you to reach the hull, which the deff-rolla is technically not).

Typically, I've seen people simply include "ramming appendages" like Deff-Rollas and Dozers/Siege shields as part of the hull, so Shock Prows would fall into that category.

Raiders come on a hover base. I always use that for measuring distances to and from a vehicle, as the BRB states you should, IIRC. You only measure to the hull for vehicles without a base, such as the Chaos Defiler and Leman Russ Battle Tank.

That's completely wrong. The rulebook allows you to measure to the base of a skimmer for the purpose of assaulting (and even then you can make contact with either base or hull).

Corrode wrote:That's completely wrong. The rulebook allows you to measure to the base of a skimmer for the purpose of assaulting (and even then you can make contact with either base or hull).

Really? Quote please, I won't argue if you can prove it.

Read 'Measuring Distances' in the skimmer section.

Actually, there even is a picture in the section with the measuring rules including a trukk, where its reinforced ram is explicitly ignored. Should be the same for shock prows then.

Meh, I'll take your word for it, don't have my BRB to hand.

It even tells you in the skimmer rules to ignore the base. So thats wrong on two accounts...

I would agree that the shockprow is an upgrade like a dozer blade and so not part of the hull.

jmurph wrote:I would agree that the shockprow is an upgrade like a dozer blade and so not part of the hull.

The rule on page 56 says to "...(ignore gun barrels, dozer blades, antennas, banners and other decorative elements)"

I would not consider a shock prow or a ram to be a decorative element.

Particularly since to make a ramming attack, the ramming tanks moves until it comes in contact with the enemy vehicle.

The shock prow is part of the vehicle and when it contacts an enemy vehicle, the collision occurs.

The picture on page 3 explicitly ignores the reinforced ram as hull on the trukk. Also almost exactly the same as a dozerblade, which isn't decorative either.

By the way, I even play my deff rollas as dozer blades unless the opponent wants to play it otherwise(I don't care either way), and this interpretation causes way less unintuitive situations than playing it as hull.

Right or wrong, I have always played rollas and blades are part of the hull. It just makes gameplay easier.

And, if someone were to get bent out of shape about it, then I just try to clarify it up front.

But, let me ask this question then to all the people that say it does not count: On a pitched battle deployment zone, would you allow the shockprow (rolla, whatever) to be an inch over the deployment line? After all, it doesn't count.

So, when you really boil it down, it does not really matter that much which way you count it as long as you are consistent the whole game.

Awesome! I answered to your post before you posted it

Most DE player's don't use shock prows but we still put them on our vehicles for aesthetic purposes so in that sense they are decorative.

I usually ask my opponent before hand and we usually agree to use the hull of the vehicles for measuring LOS and disembarking. Just be consistent.

If my opponent wants to shoot at the prow then I will let him, but that means I get to measure from it for my wyches to disembark.

It's not at all like a dozerblade or reinforced ram from a modelling perspective.

You dont have to put a blade on a rhino....it looks normal.

If you do not put a shock prow (or the other nosecone) on the raider model, the model is simply incomplete. The shock prow is a small bit longer than the normal nosecone but it is still part of the vehicle...not totally optional.

I've always played it as part of the hull since the new model came out...and never had a problem with it. Yes my wyches will jump 2" off the tip as well....after pivoting on the 12" line first. Hull or no...it's legal "Models can embark or disembark within 2" OF ANY POINT OF THE VEHICLE."

When I ram is my shock prow touching your model? Hull or no I've satisfied the rulebook requirement for a ram. "If the ramming tank COMES INTO CONTACT WITH AN ENEMY VEHICLE, the collision is resolved as follows."

If the shock prow of my raider is in contact with your tank, how is my vehicle not "in contact"? Hull or no, who cares? The vehicle is "in contact", ram is resolved.

Whether or not something is Hull only really matters during the shooting phase otherwise it's generally "in contact wit the vehicle." I generally consider the prow to be hull for shooting purposes, but that's just me.

You misquoted. Its within 2" of the HULL.

actually, I was typing straight out of the rulebook...go read it.

Open topped vehicles do not deploy troops from the hull...they deploy from any point of the vehicle. Raiders are open topped...hence...

Yet you are still told to ignore "decorative" elements - you cannot measure to them, therefore you cannot disembark 2" from them. meaning you end up back to disembarking 2" from the hull

nosferatu1001 wrote:Yet you are still told to ignore "decorative" elements - you cannot measure to them, therefore you cannot disembark 2" from them. meaning you end up back to disembarking 2" from the hull

1. A shock prow is no more a decorative element than the normal prow...which is not decorative, its part of the vehicle.

2. Nowhere do you see the term "decorative element" or anything of the sort in the rules for Open Topped Transport Vehicles on page 70. However it does specifically say ANY point of the vehicle.

Sorry nos, you're wrong.

(not every army plays like Spaize MareenzHURRRR!)

I'd imagine that most people wouldn't really care as long as you're consistent (i.e. if you can ram me with that bit of the vehicle, I can shoot it when it's sticking out the side of a building). To be honest, most non-DE players probably don't even know the difference.

Deadshane1 wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:Yet you are still told to ignore "decorative" elements - you cannot measure to them, therefore you cannot disembark 2" from them. meaning you end up back to disembarking 2" from the hull

1. A shock prow is no more a decorative element than the normal prow...which is not decorative, its part of the vehicle.

2. Nowhere do you see the term "decorative element" or anything of the sort in the rules for Open Topped Transport Vehicles on page 70. However it does specifically say ANY point of the vehicle.

Sorry nos, you're wrong.

(not every army plays like Spaize MareenzHURRRR!)

So I can disembark my troops from the top of the giant sail on my raider? For example onto a roof.

If you only have LOS to the top of of the sail can you shoot at the raider?