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1) The shock prow itself IS decorative.
2) You are required to measure. Look up the rules on measuring to vehicles.

Open topped vehicles can disembark from any point of the vehicle, but you are only allowed to measure from the hull, so decorative elements like guns/antennae/banners/dozeblades cannot be disembarked from because you cannot measure to them.

I am not sure anymore about the shockprow, but if it is not hull, you can't disembark from it.

BTW, saying that it is a normal part of the vehicle doesn't matter, as my LRBT main battle cannon is a normal part of it but I still can't measure to it for being shot at/disembarking(just go with it).

-cgmckenzie

aggie0642 wrote:

Deadshane1 wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:Yet you are still told to ignore "decorative" elements - you cannot measure to them, therefore you cannot disembark 2" from them. meaning you end up back to disembarking 2" from the hull

1. A shock prow is no more a decorative element than the normal prow...which is not decorative, its part of the vehicle.

2. Nowhere do you see the term "decorative element" or anything of the sort in the rules for Open Topped Transport Vehicles on page 70. However it does specifically say ANY point of the vehicle.

Sorry nos, you're wrong.

(not every army plays like Spaize MareenzHURRRR!)

So I can disembark my troops from the top of the giant sail on my raider? For example onto a roof.

It may seem ridiculous but I suppose if you'd find it advantageous...the rules support this.

If you only have LOS to the top of of the sail can you shoot at the raider?

Personally I dunno if the "sail" is as much a part of the hull as the prow is...this rarely matters to me however. I take shots and allow shots pretty much based off of my opponents opinion. These sort of rules debates never have much bearing on the outcome of a game. If I've got a needle sized part of the sail sticking up over a hill that the opponent wants to shoot at I would probably say...."really?" and make him feel foolish about it. If I decided it wasnt worth the arguement I'd just roll my 4+ cover save....again, it's not going to matter win or lose.

Any point of the vehicle for disembarkation. However, you could be


Automatically Appended Next Post:

nosferatu1001 wrote:1) The shock prow itself IS decorative.

Thats your opinion. Which I do not happen to agree with.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

cgmckenzie wrote:Open topped vehicles can disembark from any point of the vehicle, but you are only allowed to measure from the hull, so decorative elements like guns/antennae/banners/dozeblades cannot be disembarked from because you cannot measure to them.

I am not sure anymore about the shockprow, but if it is not hull, you can't disembark from it.

BTW, saying that it is a normal part of the vehicle doesn't matter, as my LRBT main battle cannon is a normal part of it but I still can't measure to it for being shot at/disembarking(just go with it).

"any point of the vehicle" seems pretty straightforward of a rule to me. Trying to convolute it as you have here doesnt change a thing.

"any point of the vehicle" is any point of the vehicle. Not any point but.....

Fine. Now measure 2" to it.

The rules only let you measure to the hull. Thats it. So, feel free to try to disembark from the sail. When you try and measure 2" from it, I'll stop you and ask you to measure to the hull.

The shock prow in and of itself IS decorative, as it is not hull.

Pg 56 Vehicles and Measuring Distances
"Instead, for distances involving a vehicles, measure to or from their hull(ignore gun barrels, dozer blades, antennas, banners, and other decorative elements)."

So yes, it says you can disembark from any point on the vehicle, but you still can only measure to hull. You ignore the above list for all measuring(except gun barrels for their own shooting).

-cgmckenzie

Damn, I need to type faster.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
The shock prow in and of itself IS decorative, as it is not hull.

And where in the rules does it state this? Tell me, I'd like to see it.

I'm sure a NORMAL prow is part of the hull, since the vehicle is incomplete w/o it and it forms a definate part of the vehicles "mass".

What, just b/c a shock prow has a different bit, is a little bit longer and you pay points for it now all of a sudden my raider is actually SHORTER than a raider with a regular prow?

Just b/c the models peice is pointed doesnt make it any different from the front of a rhino as far as ramming goes.

You do realise ramming and disembarking are 2 different things, with two different criteria, yes?

Ramming only requires contact with the vehicle, not the hull

Disembarking requires you to measure to the vehicle, and you are only allowed to measure to the hull.

The prow is decorative because it is not an essential part of the vehicles hull - see CGMs quote. Just because you dont agree doesnt mean youre right on this.

Again, the main cannon on my LRBT is essential and forms a large part of the vehicle, but it is not hull. In no way could you claim it is hull. The BGB specifically states that things like that are not hull. The Shockprow isn't hull.

-cgmckenzie

cgmckenzie wrote:Pg 56 Vehicles and Measuring Distances
"Instead, for distances involving a vehicles, measure to or from their hull(ignore gun barrels, dozer blades, antennas, banners, and other decorative elements)."

So yes, it says you can disembark from any point on the vehicle, but you still can only measure to hull. You ignore the above list for all measuring(except gun barrels for their own shooting).

-cgmckenzie

Damn, I need to type faster.

That's true, you're right...

BUT

It also states, under vehicles and movement that cruising speed is 12". You have to go to "FAST VEHICLES" to see exactly how THEY move...as they move differently.

Under the transport rules you measure to an access point and/or to the hull as the "Vehicles and Measuring Distances" rules states....but you dig a little further and go to open topped transport vehicles and UNLIKE regular transports we never mention the hull. It's simply "any point of the vehicle".

In effect this is an amendment to the rules you've quoted. Thats what these chapters are in the rulebook. A hard rule then several amendments to that rule. This is one such amendment. They mentioned "hull" in the normal transport rules. They didnt need to b/c of the rule you quoted of course. The omission of the word "hull" anywhere in the open topped transport section and instead saying "any point of the vehicle" tells me that this is an amendment to the rule you quoted.

This rule is one of two things

1. A poorly written rule. (if interpreted your way)
2. Perfectly amended and not confusing. (if interpreted my way or by RAW)

And, again, now find a way to measure to not-hull

When you can find permission to measure, come back.

nosferatu1001 wrote:You do realise ramming and disembarking are 2 different things, with two different criteria, yes?

Ramming only requires contact with the vehicle, not the hull

Disembarking requires you to measure to the vehicle, and you are only allowed to measure to the hull.

The prow is decorative because it is not an essential part of the vehicles hull - see CGMs quote. Just because you dont agree doesnt mean youre right on this.

I'm still waiting for evidence saying that a prow is not part of the hull. You say it's not an essential part of the vehicles hull...how did you come to this conclusion? Please tell me? I'd like to know where you're coming up with this.

I still disagree with you.


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nosferatu1001 wrote:And, again, now find a way to measure to not-hull

When you can find permission to measure, come back.

What part of "any point of the vehicle" do you not understand?

What part of "the measuring rules only give you permission to measure to the hull" are you struggling with?

Simple concept. Find permission to measure to not-hull. Hint: The line about disembarking isnt it.

The fact that a shock prow can be added to, like a reinforced ram, the hull indicaets it isnt hull. Shockingly simple.

Tell you what, we'll 4+ it then...looky there a '6'.

Now what'cha gonna do?


Since it seems to me like you're not even reading my posts or responding to my inquiries to your stance, I guess we're done. Keep making up rules as you go along, I suppose it's going well for you. Good luck.

*blinks*

Sorry, I've read your dirth-of-rules posts, youre apparently struggling finding a rules quote to back your position, so I'll leave you to your conviction that youre right, lack of evidence and all.

nosferatu1001 wrote:The fact that a shock prow can be added to, like a reinforced ram, the hull indicaets it isnt hull. Shockingly simple.

It's not added...it replaces. It's just a different bit TO an essential part of the hull. Yes, shockingly simple.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

nosferatu1001 wrote:*blinks*

Sorry, I've read your dirth-of-rules posts, youre apparently struggling finding a rules quote to back your position, so I'll leave you to your conviction that youre right, lack of evidence and all.

Not struggling at all sir. It's right there in black and white...you simply refuse to accept the RAW.

Replacing the battle canon with an executioner doesn't make it hull. Essential, yes, but not hull.

-cgmckenzie

1) The prow itself isnt hull. Decorative item in both cases

HIDEOUSLY simple.

2) What RAW? You've yet to give any.

a) you must measure 2"
b) you can only measure to the hull

GASP! that means you can only measure 2" to the hull!

So, please, find some rules or concede. And, as pointed out, a line requring you to measure isnt a line giving you the rules on how you measure.

cgmckenzie wrote:Replacing the battle canon with an executioner doesn't make it hull. Essential, yes, but not hull.

-cgmckenzie

I dunno where you get this from. We're not talking about a gun. We're talking about a peice of the hull that the model is incomplete w/o.

I suppose neither of you have put together a raider though.

Guess youre wrong, then.

So, any rules yet?

Nos your argumentative mood seriously hampers your debating ability. You should know this by now.

Deadshane is right on this issue. It does indeed count as the hull, as a raider without a shockprow, or a normal prow, is incomplete. It is clearly an essential part of the model and vehicle itself. Deadshane also said "I'm still waiting for evidence saying that a prow is not part of the hull. You say it's not an essential part of the vehicles hull...how did you come to this conclusion? Please tell me? I'd like to know where you're coming up with this. " Which you have yet to answer other than providing argumentative drivel.

A LRBT gun is an essential part of the model, without which it is incomplete.

Doesnt make it hull

An argument along those lines is not a winning argument. Try again.

Another immature, argumentative response. Surprising.

An example can never be used to prove your argument.

The dark eldar raider, when being built, is required to insert a prow into the gaping maw at the front end of the vehicle. It is not optional nor "decorative" but required, as an essential part of the vehicle itself.

In order to prove your claim correct, you must specifically show that the prow of the dark eldar vehicles is clearly, without a shadow of a doubt non essential to the operation of the vehicle. Your definition of hull is shaky at best when applied to vehicles outside of the Imperium.

the purpose of the rule your a citing is to not penalize players for adding decorative elements, as the hull is what is measured from. However, claiming that something isn't hull without further explanation other than "Try Again." is only proving the vagueness of your definition.

When building a LRBT you are required to put a cannon of some form, and fill the hole in the front with a heavy bolter, flamer, or lascannon. Doesn't make them hull.

-cgmckenzie

Nightsblood - Another post that failed to read and comphrend the post before it, shock.

When building a LRBT, you must add the gun, otherwise the vehicle is incomplete. You MUST add heavy flamer / bolter, otherwise there is a gaping hole.

This does not make the gun part of the hull. It does not make the flamer part of the hull. An argument along the lines of "the vehicle isnt complete without X" is not a sufficient condition for X being part of the hull.

So, does this mean that my Wyches cannot disembark out of the front of a Raider since the Shock Prow is decorative and it extends out farther than 2" (or something very close to that) past the hull? Does this mean that if my Hammie is shooting from the Raider then it can't use the Shock Prow for measuring its distance?

Exactly that.

However you can get out the front, as you only need to measure 2" coherency, not 2" unobsctructed coherency, meaning you can place a wytch either side of the prow.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/prow

prow (prou)
n.
1. Nautical The forward part of a ship's hull; the bow.
2. A projecting forward part, such as the front end of a ski.

English language FTW

Now, if you can find a definition that a gun barrel is a PART of a tanks HULL, perhaps you can find a precedant for your arguement.

They can deploy out the front, just not directly in front of the prow. No shooting to it or from it either.

-cgmckenzie

A prow is not a weapon.

A prow is an essential part of the vehicle, a weapon is specifically stated as not being a part of the hull.

You seem to have a problem understanding that because someone disagrees with you, it means that they " failed to read and comphrend the post before it."
Someone can read and comprehend and also disagree.

Again i ask you - "In order to prove your claim correct, you must specifically show that the prow of the dark eldar vehicles is clearly, without a shadow of a doubt non essential to the operation of the vehicle."





Automatically Appended Next Post:

Deadshane1 wrote:http://www.thefreedictionary.com/prow

prow (prou)
n.
1. Nautical The forward part of a ship's hull; the bow.
2. A projecting forward part, such as the front end of a ski.

English language FTW

Now, if you can find a definition that a gun barrel is a PART of a tanks HULL, perhaps you can find a precedant for your arguement.

Denial in

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