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So the DE weapon Hex rifle states that a model that suffers an unsaved wound from a hexrifle must pass a wound charactristics test or be removed from play. FNP states that if a model with this ability suffers an unsaved wound he may roll a dice to ignore the wound. So even if he ignores the wound does he still take the test vs the hex rifle?

No. The wound is ignored, as such no unsaved wound is actually suffered.

To be prosaic FNP is an interrupt from old school magic.
Or a reflex based charm from something like Exalted.
Maybe even evasion in DOTA style games.

Ah, here we go again. There was a lot of fuss made about something similar with Lemartes over on Warseer.

If both abilities trigger from "suffers an unsaved wound" how do you determine which one takes precedence?

RAW, a model that passes FNP has still "suffered an unsaved wound," otherwise it wouldn't have had to take the FNP test in the first place.

And if the unsaved wound is ignored, then it's ignored, not just 'ignored for some things but not others.'

the best way to deal with the timing on these sorts of abilities is:

"Denial before enhancer"

The means any preventative abilities should go off before any extra effects, when they both have the same trigger.

For example: FNP would always go before any further effects caused by "When a model suffers an unsaved wound".

Corrode wrote:And if the unsaved wound is ignored, then it's ignored, not just 'ignored for some things but not others.'

Exactly what I was about to write. Ignored means it didn't happen.

Ignored means it functionally didn't happen, so the hex rifle doesn't get to trigger.

Mannahnin wrote:Ignored means it functionally didn't happen, so the hex rifle doesn't get to trigger.

OK say you all seem to be saying FNP comes first which I'm fine with but where does it state this in the rules, the trigger for both events is an unsaved wound (does the same apply to flesh guantlets that cause instant death with an unsaved wound?).

The phrase "the wound is ignored" doesn't appear in the FNP rules.

In order for FNP to trigger, the model must have suffered an unsaved wound. If FNP has triggered, the model has suffered an unsaved wound, and if the model suffers an unsaved wound it must suffer the effects of the Hexrifle.

I mean, the whole denial before enhancement is a nice house rule...but it's not supported by the RAW.

(does the same apply to flesh guantlets that cause instant death with an unsaved wound?).

FNP is denied by weapons that inflict instant death (by either doubling its toughness or having a special rule to that effect).

"On a 4, 5 or 6 the injury is ignored and the model continues fighting."(BRB pg. 75)

Seems like you are right, not just the unsaved wound is ignored, but the entire injury caused by the weapon, including any funky characteristic test.

Even if it weren't, if you are taking the hex rifle test, you are not ignoring the wound and thus breaking the rules.

Unsaved wound =/= injury.

Canadian 5th wrote:Unsaved wound =/= injury.

Cool, so FNP doesn't work at all then since all it does is ignore an 'injury'?

Corrode wrote:

Canadian 5th wrote:Unsaved wound =/= injury.

Cool, so FNP doesn't work at all then since all it does is ignore an 'injury'?

Yup, no weapon causes injury in the entire game. Weapons cause wounds though.

Things to note about the hex rifle ...

1) it is a sniper weapon ... this means that any 6's are rending so ignore armour save and FnP

2) While it say it does not effect vehicels that is just the special characteristic test, as a sniper weapon it Str 3+ D6 and hopefully a rending D3.

3) If a model with wounds is effected by the special test then they die, with no saves.

4) Gargantuan creature cannot be affected by weapons without a strength characteristic.

Tri wrote:
2) While it say it does not effect vehicels that is just the special characteristic test, as a sniper weapon it Str 3+ D6 and hopefully a rending D3.

There's nothing to indicate that's true. It says vehicles can't be affected by hexrifles...so vehicles can't be effected by hexrifles.

Compare that with the poisoned weapon's rule: "These weapons confer no advantage against vehicles." Models with poisoned weapons have their base strength to fall back on (in close combat anyway). Models with sniper rifles rely on the special rule to damage a vehicle. The Hexrifle overrides that rule.

Canadian 5th wrote:

Corrode wrote:

Canadian 5th wrote:Unsaved wound =/= injury.

Cool, so FNP doesn't work at all then since all it does is ignore an 'injury'?

Yup, no weapon causes injury in the entire game. Weapons cause wounds though.

Good to know that we've solved the problem of FNP spam with the realisation that it doesn't work anyway. Or we could stop pretending we play Magic and have keywords and so on and remember that injury and wound are synonyms which are close enough for the group of middle-aged casual players who wrote the game to think they'd mean the same thing to anyone who doesn't need help tying their own shoelaces.

If we can agree that injury and wound are synonyms, why can't we agree that "suffers an unsaved wound" and "suffers an unsaved wound" are very similar phrases?

I never said they weren't; my argument is that if FNP causes the unsaved woudn to be 'ignored' then it's ignored. There's nothing to suggest it's 'ignored but only a little bit.'

bushido wrote:If we can agree that injury and wound are synonyms, why can't we agree that "suffers an unsaved wound" and "suffers an unsaved wound" are very similar phrases?

The argument is that, if you still act as if an unsaved wound has occured, you have not ignored said unsaved wound

bushido wrote:The phrase "the wound is ignored" doesn't appear in the FNP rules.

In order for FNP to trigger, the model must have suffered an unsaved wound. If FNP has triggered, the model has suffered an unsaved wound, and if the model suffers an unsaved wound it must suffer the effects of the Hexrifle.

I mean, the whole denial before enhancement is a nice house rule...but it's not supported by the RAW.

(does the same apply to flesh guantlets that cause instant death with an unsaved wound?).

FNP is denied by weapons that inflict instant death (by either doubling its toughness or having a special rule to that effect).

I can run with this and amend my original idea:
Scratch what I had just said in this post prior to my edit.

FNP is itself negated by attacks that cause ID; ID itself is dependent upon unsaved wounds in all cases. Flesh gauntlets cause ID; therefore negate FNP. My original idea still functions with this case.

Corrode wrote:I never said they weren't; my argument is that if FNP causes the unsaved woudn to be 'ignored' then it's ignored. There's nothing to suggest it's 'ignored but only a little bit.'

And then you're back to: Where is it written that FNP takes precedence over other abilities that trigger off of models suffering unsaved wounds?

Compare this to the DE Clawed Fiend's special ability: "A Clawed Fiend gains +1A each time is loses a Wound."

You all seem to be under the assumption that the "unsaved wound" that triggers FNP is somehow different than the exact same "unsaved wound" wording that triggers other effects.

FNP allows you to ignore the effects of an unsaved wound, which is the model losing/taking a wound. The effect of FNP is not to allow you to ignore that an unsaved wound ever occurred, because that would be imposible.

Is this not in effect the same Arguement as Acid Blood and Feel No Pain?

bushido wrote:

Corrode wrote:I never said they weren't; my argument is that if FNP causes the unsaved woudn to be 'ignored' then it's ignored. There's nothing to suggest it's 'ignored but only a little bit.'

And then you're back to: Where is it written that FNP takes precedence over other abilities that trigger off of models suffering unsaved wounds?

Compare this to the DE Clawed Fiend's special ability: "A Clawed Fiend gains +1A each time is loses a Wound."

You all seem to be under the assumption that the "unsaved wound" that triggers FNP is somehow different than the exact same "unsaved wound" wording that triggers other effects.

FNP allows you to ignore the effects of an unsaved wound, which is the model losing/taking a wound. The effect of FNP is not to allow you to ignore that an unsaved wound ever occurred, because that would be imposible.

And then we are back to feel no pain does nothing at all.

BRB page 24, remove casualties, second sentence: "Most models have a single Wound on their profile, in which case for each unsaved wound one model is removed as a casualty."

BRB page 26, Multiple wound models, second paragraph: When such a multiple-wound model suffers an unsaved wound, it loses one wound is removed from it's profile."

So if FNP does not function before any other effects triggered via suffering an unsaved wound, then it never works.

bushido wrote:

Corrode wrote:I never said they weren't; my argument is that if FNP causes the unsaved woudn to be 'ignored' then it's ignored. There's nothing to suggest it's 'ignored but only a little bit.'

And then you're back to: Where is it written that FNP takes precedence over other abilities that trigger off of models suffering unsaved wounds?

Compare this to the DE Clawed Fiend's special ability: "A Clawed Fiend gains +1A each time is loses a Wound."

You all seem to be under the assumption that the "unsaved wound" that triggers FNP is somehow different than the exact same "unsaved wound" wording that triggers other effects.

FNP allows you to ignore the effects of an unsaved wound, which is the model losing/taking a wound. The effect of FNP is not to allow you to ignore that an unsaved wound ever occurred, because that would be imposible.

In what way would the hexrifle effect not be an effect of suffering an unsaved wound?

I don't see the argument here... Both effects happen when an "unsaved wound" occurs. Roll for both, if the toughness test fails the model is removed as per Hexrifles ability. The text doesn't say, remove model from play only if the injury is not ignored. both are unsaved wounds, both abilities happen, FnP doesn't stop a remove from play

Built-in wrote:I don't see the argument here... Both effects happen when an "unsaved wound" occurs. Roll for both, if the toughness test fails the model is removed as per Hexrifles ability. The text doesn't say, remove model from play only if the injury is not ignored. both are unsaved wounds, both abilities happen, FnP doesn't stop a remove from play

FnP doesn't stop a remove from play, however, if the hex rifle takes effect the wound is hardly ignored.

You have one of two ways to go about things that trigger off unsaved wounds when FNP is involved.

Way #1:
Roll for FNP first, if passed ignore the wound (This is the same as the wound never happening and thus nothing else can trigger)

Way #2:
Roll for any effects except for FNP, and save FNP until last, then
Roll for FNP last and if passed ignore the wound then ignore all the results of any effects you have rolled for, since you have to Ignore the wound (as if the wound never happened) because of FNP.

and yes wound = injury, the terms are interchangeable.

Built-in wrote:I don't see the argument here... Both effects happen when an "unsaved wound" occurs. Roll for both, if the toughness test fails the model is removed as per Hexrifles ability. The text doesn't say, remove model from play only if the injury is not ignored. both are unsaved wounds, both abilities happen, FnP doesn't stop a remove from play

Death reaper has it; but in regards to your statement; if the effects caused from an unsaved wound happen before FNP; then see my earlier bit where FNP never works, one of the effects of suffering an unsaved wound is the loss of a wound or the removal of the model.

If you allow FNP to actually function and the unsaved wound is ignored, then the model has not suffered an unsaved wound and none of the ancillary effects caused by said unsaved wound can possibly take effect(as no unsaved wound was suffered).

Since when does ignored mean it never happened??

Ignored does not mean that the unsaved wound didn't happen, it just means that the model doesnt pay attention to the fact that he just got his spleen blown out of his body.

I can ignore that annoying kid in the corner who keeps making loud screeching noises whenever he rolls the dice., but that doesnt mean that he isnt still making the noises every time he rolls the dice. Just because you ignore something doesnt mean it never happened.

If you pass the FnP roll, the wound is ignored and you dont lose a wound, but its still an unsaved wound that you failed an armor test for, hence you would still have to abide by the rules for the hexrifle.

Meaning you havent ignored the wound - you are still paying attention to it, by doing something that triggers from that state.

So once again we're back to 'ignored doesn't actually mean ignored.'

Either the wound is ignored, in which case nothing happens, or it isn't ignored, in which case FNP doesn't ever work. You can't have it both ways.