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The wound itself is ignored, the secondary effects aren't.

Canadian 5th wrote:The wound itself is ignored, the secondary effects aren't.

You'll be able to back this up with rules, I'm sure.

Both Feel No Pain (FnP) and the Hex Rifle Toughness Test (HRTT) trigger on an unsaved wound.

In the simplest of situations:
If you perform and succeed at FnP first, the wound is ignored and you don't perform HRTT. Therefore, you break the rules.

If you perform and fail the HRTT first, the model is removed from play and you don't perform FnP. Therefore, you break the rules.

However, as Canadian 5th says, if FnP only ignores the wound, but not the secondary effects (and therefore HRTT doesn't ignore FnP as well because the model is no longer there) you can perform both. So if you then perform both, succeed at FnP and fail the HRTT, the wound is still ignored (as in, "you don't suffer a -1 on your wound characteristic") but you are removed from play as per the Hex Rifle rules.

Canadian 5th wrote:The wound itself is ignored, the secondary effects aren't.

You are treating the trigger event (unsaved wound) as if it still existed, in order to propagate your "secondary" effects.

Meaning you arent ignoring the wound.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

Canadian 5th wrote:The wound itself is ignored, the secondary effects aren't.

You are treating the trigger event (unsaved wound) as if it still existed, in order to propagate your "secondary" effects.

Meaning you arent ignoring the wound.

The same can be said in favour of the Hex Rifle. You are rolling FnP, but the model is no longer in play.

Which breaks FNP. Which was tghe point - you can either break FNP so it doesnt work, or accept that the hex rifle doesnt trigger from an unsaved wound that has been "saved" by FNP.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Which breaks FNP. Which was tghe point - you can either break FNP so it doesnt work, or accept that the hex rifle doesnt trigger from an unsaved wound that has been "saved" by FNP.

So what you are saying is that you can either break FnP or the Hex Rifle special rule. But you prefer to break the Hex Rifle rule.

This isn't magic, with triggers being like throwing grenades. If the cause of the trigger is gone, everything the trigger does is gone.

1. A painboy suffers an unsaved wound.
2. Roll feel no pain with this blue dice and hex rifle test with this red dice.
3 -> passes FNP, fails hexrifle
4. Ignore wound.
5. No reason for hexrifle to remove model, as no unsaved wound has been suffered.

Jidmah wrote:This isn't magic, with triggers being like throwing grenades. If the cause of the trigger is gone, everything the trigger does is gone.

1. A painboy suffers an unsaved wound.
2. Roll feel no pain with this blue dice and hex rifle test with this red dice.
3 -> passes FNP, fails hexrifle
4. Ignore wound.
5. No reason for hexrifle to remove model, as no unsaved wound has been suffered.

1. A painboy suffers an unsaved wound.
2. Roll feel no pain with this blue dice and hex rifle test with this red dice.
3 -> passes FNP, fails hexrifle
4. Remove model from play.
5. No reason to ignore the wound, as the model has been removed from play.

Fixed?

Except you didnt ignore the wound, as the hex rifle still triggered.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Except you didnt ignore the wound, as the hex rifle still triggered.

And you didn't remove the model from play, as FnP still triggered.

Its FNP that tells you to ignore the wound.

If you have ignored the wound, you have no cause to use the hex rifles ability

nosferatu1001 wrote:Its FNP that tells you to ignore the wound.

If you have ignored the wound, you have no cause to use the hex rifles ability

So you prioritize FnP over the Hex Rifle, even though both happen at the same time (the original unsaved wound). So you'd rather break the Hex Rifle rule than the FnP one.

You don't violate the hex rifle rule. The model didn't suffer a wound, so the hex rifle rule is intact, as it does nothing if the model didn't suffer a wound.
You do violate the rules if you apply the hex rifle rule, even though the target model never suffered an unsaved wound.

The definition of an unsaved wound:

For every model that fails its save, the unit suffers an unsaved wound. Of course, this also includes wound against which no save can be attempted, [...]

At this point you're just making stuff up to suit your argument.

The model/unit was hit.
The model was allocated a wound.
The model failed its save.
The model has suffered an unsaved wound.

FNP tells you to ignore the injury, it does not tell you to ignore the unsaved wound. FNP prevents the "remove casualties" effects of an unsaved wound in the same way that the Instant Death rule prevents the use of FNP.

A lot of combat and shooting resolution takes place simultaneously. It's strange to me that you have such a problem with the effects of an "unsaved wound" being resolved the same way.

bushido wrote:The definition of an unsaved wound:

For every model that fails its save, the unit suffers an unsaved wound. Of course, this also includes wound against which no save can be attempted, [...]

At this point you're just making stuff up to suit your argument.

The model/unit was hit.
The model was allocated a wound.
The model failed its save.
The model has suffered an unsaved wound.

FNP tells you to ignore the injury, it does not tell you to ignore the unsaved wound. FNP prevents the "remove casualties" effects of an unsaved wound in the same way that the Instant Death rule prevents the use of FNP.

A lot of combat and shooting resolution takes place simultaneously. It's strange to me that you have such a problem with the effects of an "unsaved wound" being resolved the same way.

The problem is the "ignore the injury" part of FnP. A lot of people resolve this as: roll back to a point in time where the wound has not occured yet.

I think people are ignoring a piece here FNP is not a "SAVE", it is a special rule, no where in its rule does it say that it is a save. so the model still takes an unsaved wound, which does not cause the model to be removed because of a "wound".

BBB p75 "On a 1, 2 or 3, take the wound as normal (removing the model if it loses its final Wound). On a 4, 5 or 6, the injury is ignored and the model continues fighting."

the hex rifle triggers on an unsaved wound, which has occured wether or not a special rule prevents the wound from being recorded on the model.

so in this case the model will not take a wound on it profile, but still must take the Wounds test to avoid being removed from the table, which has nothing to do with wounds.

If you " take the Wounds test to avoid being removed from the table" then you have not ignored the wound.

you have two ways to look at FNP.

It says if you fail you take the wound as normal, and if you make it you IGNORE IT!

now at the point we ignore it we have to actually ignore it, I.E. Pretend it did not happen.

So if we pretend the wound did not happen, we can not activate any effects from said wound, since we are ignoring it.

As I said earlier, take FNP first Ignore the wound, and the effects that triggered from the wound.

Take FNP second after you have rolled to determine effects caused from the wound, then roll FNP and ignore the wound, and the effects that triggered from the wound.

So you may as well roll FNP first because if you roll a 4+ you ignore the wound (As if it never happened.) therefore no effects can trigger since we are ignoring the wound(As if it never happened.)

DeathReaper wrote:If you " take the Wounds test to avoid being removed from the table" then you have not ignored the wound.

you have two ways to look at FNP.

It says if you fail you take the wound as normal, and if you make it you IGNORE IT!

now at the point we ignore it we have to actually ignore it, I.E. Pretend it did not happen.

So if we pretend the wound did not happen, we can not activate any effects from said wound, since we are ignoring it.

As I said earlier, take FNP first Ignore the wound, and the effects that triggered from the wound.

Take FNP second after you have rolled to determine effects caused from the wound, then roll FNP and ignore the wound, and the effects that triggered from the wound.

So you may as well roll FNP first because if you roll a 4+ you ignore the wound (As if it never happened.) therefore no effects can trigger since we are ignoring the wound(As if it never happened.)

At no point does it say you ignore the wound.

Also, you can ignore an injury all you like only to die of infection or blood lose.

Also, role for FNP when you've been removed due to the Hexrifle's rule... What's that, you can't?

Canadian 5th wrote:
At no point does it say you ignore the wound.

Also, you can ignore an injury all you like only to die of infection or blood lose.

Also, role for FNP when you've been removed due to the Hexrifle's rule... What's that, you can't?

The underlined above is why you have to roll for FNP first, otherwise you break FNP and it is useless.

Look at the context of FNP.
BBB p75 "On a 1, 2 or 3, take the wound as normal (removing the model if it loses its final Wound). On a 4, 5 or 6, the injury is ignored and the model continues fighting."

on one result you take the wound as normal, on the other you IGNORE IT. Wound = injury

In fact this is the only time the rules reference Injury, so either injury = wound, or FNP does nothing.

How does one take wound effects into account when you are told to ignore it?

How is this not resolved under the traditional "specific beats general" rule?

- FNP is a special rule that triggers on an unsaved wound.

- Hex Rifle is a special rule that triggers on an unsaved wound.

- The operation of one of the above negates the operation of the other.

- Therefore, because the Hex Rifle is a more specific rule (Codex) than FNP (rulebook), Hex Rifle wins out.

Submitted for consideration.

DeathReaper wrote:
How does one take wound effects into account when you are told to ignore it?

Easy. The model is removed from play with all his wounds intact.

I think everyone is missing an important part of the Hex Rifle rule:

"A model that suffers an unsaved wound from a hexrifle must take a characteristic test based on their Wounds value (i.e. the one on their profile, not the current Wounds). If they fail the test, they are removed from play, with no saves of any kind."

To me, this means that the Toughness test occurs after the armor save, and if failed, denies the ability to use FnP.

edited for typo.

this part is true for everyone

the general procedure is :

model is targeted
model is hit
model fails their armor/invul/cover save
model has suffered an unsaved wound.
model applies one wound to its profile
models with 0 wounds are removed.

now we have two special rules which take precedence over the general

hex rifle
model suffering an unsaved wound makes a T test or be removed from the table.

FNP
model suffering an unsaved wound rolls a die 1-3 as normal 4-6 the model [does not take a wound on its profile].

still there is no issue here
The special rule for the hex rifle is not dependant on the model to actually apply a wound to its profile, its only dependant on it suffering an "unsaved wound"

so it is completly reasonable for the model to make a FNP so it does not deduct a wound, but still fail the wounds test and be removed.

lixulana wrote:
we have two special rules which take precedence over the general

hex rifle
model suffering an unsaved wound makes a T test or be removed from the table.

FNP
model suffering an unsaved wound rolls a die 1-3 as normal 4-6 the [Wound is IGNORED] model [does not take a wound on its profile].

still there is no issue here
The special rule for the hex rifle is not dependant on the model to actually apply a wound to its profile, its only dependant on it suffering an "unsaved wound"

so it is completly [not] reasonable for the model to make a FNP so it [Ignores a wound not] does not deduct a wound, but still fail the wounds test and be removed.

fixed with the yellow.

Except that triggering effects off of a wound that you are told to ignore is breaking the rules. In the underlined, if you are ignoring the wound due to FNP then you can not trigger any effects of said unsaved wound, to do so would not be ignoring the wound.

To have suffered an unsaved wound, you would not have to be ignoring said unsaved wound.

lixulana wrote:model has suffered an unsaved wound.
model applies one wound to its profile
models with 0 wounds are removed.

Not to be pedantic, but this is only the procedure for single multi-wound models. It's slightly different (although mostly functionally identical) for units. However, it is irrelevant here.

lixulana wrote:hex rifle
model suffering an unsaved wound makes a T test or be removed from the table.

And if a model is removed from the table, it cannot take a FNP roll.

lixulana wrote:FNP
model suffering an unsaved wound rolls a die 1-3 as normal 4-6 the model [does not take a wound on its profile].

If it makes the save, it ignores the unsaved wound. If the unsaved wound is ignored, then the Hex Rifle can't trigger.

lixulana wrote:The special rule for the hex rifle is not dependant on the model to actually apply a wound to its profile, its only dependant on it suffering an "unsaved wound"

so it is completly reasonable for the model to make a FNP so it does not deduct a wound, but still fail the wounds test and be removed.

I don't think this is correct, for the reasons mentioned above. FNP means the model ignores the unsaved wound. If the unsaved wound is ignored, then you should treat the model as if it has never suffered an unsaved wound. Therefore, the operation of the Hex Rifle and FNP are independent and inconsistent.

DeathReaper wrote: [Wound is IGNORED]

It's customary to say "I don't meant to sound rude, but..." I think that time has passed, though. So if I come off as rude, deal with it.

The rules as printed in black and white DO NOT say to ignore the wound. If it did, you might have a leg to stand it. But it doesn't, so you don't. The rule says to ignore the injury. "Injury" is undefined as a term in 40k, so pretending that you know what the writers meant to say is inappropriate.

Even if FNP did say to ignore the wound, your opponent can just as easily say, "Hey, screw your FNP, take my Hexrifle test first, and then, if your worthless model is still there, we'll talk." Because you have NO EVIDENCE that FNP takes precedence over anything other than subtracting wounds from a model's profile. If it did, Instant Death would have no effect on models with FNP because, guess what, that triggers off of "suffering an unsaved wound" as well.

So pretend that your model that passed his FNP check never suffered an unsaved wound all you want. It doesn't make it true.

biccat wrote:

lixulana wrote:hex rifle
model suffering an unsaved wound makes a T test or be removed from the table.

And if a model is removed from the table, it cannot take a FNP roll.

And that's covered by the Hexrifle rule that states that the model gets no further saves after failing the Toughness test.

Interesting discussion to follow.

I wonder how closely this would parallel status effects of glancing a daemonically possessed walker in close combat. Glances and penetrates count towards combat resolution. If you get a glance against a Soul Grinder and shake it...it ignores the result. While it doesn't suffer from the result due to its rule, it was still glanced.

It seems like a good parallel to this discussion. A model fails a save against a Hex Rifle and takes an unsaved wound. FnP lets it ignore the result of the unsaved wound....but the status of having taken an unsaved wound still exists. Failing a save = an unsaved wound. Ignoring the effect of the unsaved wound via a special rule doesn't change the status of the model (having suffered an unsaved wound), it only modifies the consequences of having done so - no longer needing to apply a negative wound counter to the model.

Dashofpepper wrote:

I wonder how closely this would parallel status effects of glancing a daemonically possessed walker in close combat. Glances and penetrates count towards combat resolution. If you get a glance against a Soul Grinder and shake it...it ignores the result. While it doesn't suffer from the result due to its rule, it was still glanced.

Maybe, but:
pg.73

Each roll made on the Vehicle Damage table against a walker counts as a single wound for the purposes of working out who won the combat.

That just cares about the roll. Daemonic possession allows you to ignore Shaken and Stunned "results." Even normal walkers are unaffected by Shaken "results" in close combat.

The Hex rifle triggers on an unsaved wound suffered you have passed your FNP test, and the unsaved wound is ignored(thus no longer "suffered" by the model in question); why wound the secondary effect still occur?

FNP specifically retro-acts to ignore it's own trigger(Suffer the unsaved wound, test for FNP, go back and discount the unsaved wound sufferage, technically at this point you would no longer have had to take the FNP test, but the net result is that the unsaved wound is no longer suffered).