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I have started a Space Wolf army. I was writing it up at Games Workshop(I know the devil's store, it's either that or Good Games which has next to nothing of GW stuff) and I asked one of the staff he said "Oh, depends on how you use it?" and didn't give a clear answer whether it was worth it or not. I am not trying to troll. I just want an honest opinion.

The short answer is no, especially when they're competing with longfangs for a heavy support slot. But even in a vanilla marine list they're pretty meh, only really useful against hordes (who often can often neuter it anyway Ie. Lootas) because of the cover ignoring blast, and it's on an AV11 chassis so it's hardly durable.

Buy some longfangs and give them ML's instead, awesome anti-transport and suppression fire and similar anti horde capabilities (frag rounds).

In an all-corners list they're pretty much useless - their shots are far too weak to be useful against anything tougher than a Termagaunt. I would only consider taking it if you're tailoring against a footslogging Ork/Nid/Guard army, but even then you have far better options.

Oh, and the fact that it's 85 points is ridiculous when a Predator is only 65.

Andilus Greatsword wrote:In an all-corners list they're pretty much useless - their shots are far too weak to be useful against anything tougher than a Termagaunt. I would only consider taking it if you're tailoring against a footslogging Ork/Nid/Guard army, but even then you have far better options.

Oh, and the fact that it's 85 points is ridiculous when a Predator is only 65.

its not that its USELESS, its just that its a specifically tailored weapon.

it is for all intents and purposes, a horde deliniator. its purpose is not so much to actually destroy units, but rather to dissuade and corral horde armies from certain corridors of attack.

think like this, if a horde army (ork, nid, eldar anything toughness 3 really) walks into a canal or down a street and there is a pie plate buster sitting near by, the likelyhood of them getting hit is present. suffering too many casualties in a horde army is detrimental tot heir overall strategy.

dont just think of template weapons as weapons, consider using them to your advantage as detturants.

one of the biggest strengths of the whirl wind, is its indirect fire ability, so you can be out of LOS with your target, but still pose a viable threat to their advancement.

its not really a weapon built for masas destruction, rather damage and speed reduction.

I have had good luck using them in a passive-aggressive stance, rather than an offensive weapon.

as stated above, if your purpose is to attack head on, then a predator would be a better candidate.

if you are defending a position, its might not hurt to have a couple whirlwinds, but thats entirely dependant on your foe as well.

this has just been my experience, YMMV.

happy hunting!

Absolutely not. Space wolves can take long fangs with missile launchers which can also put out pie plates on hoards, split fire, maul transports with krack missiles and wont die to a stiff breeze. For regular space marines the thing about pie plates is competent people spread their guys out so you end up hitting and killing the same number of guys as a dakka predator would for the same points and the dakka pred can also threaten MC's and transports as well. They only time they are decent is when you know your opponent is taking a hoard and you are going to cheat by loading up on pie plates. Play with balanced units in all comers lists and you will be a better player.

you're all first assuminng that everyone plays Space Wolves. so for the majority of us NON canine's out there, it can be a valuable tool.

40K is a game of finesse. if you don't treat is as such, play against a player who knows tatics other than run and gun, and find out.

i'm not trying to insinuate that anyone here is not a finesse player, merely pointing out that all of the weapons at the disposal of the armies have merit in their own right.

there IS a functional, tactical use for whirlwinds. but it is NOT at the front of combat or in the line of fire.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

cromwest wrote:Absolutely not. Space wolves can take long fangs with missile launchers which can also put out pie plates on hoards, split fire, maul transports with krack missiles and wont die to a stiff breeze. For regular space marines the thing about pie plates is competent people spread their guys out so you end up hitting and killing the same number of guys as a dakka predator would for the same points and the dakka pred can also threaten MC's and transports as well. They only time they are decent is when you know your opponent is taking a hoard and you are going to cheat by loading up on pie plates. Play with balanced units in all comers lists and you will be a better player.

i'm sorry, I have to address this comment...

how exactly is using any weapon at ones disposal cheating? its a war game. a balanced one (for the vast majority at least) at that.

its not cheating, its called tactics. a good horde player would know this is a viable attack, and can counter it usually pretty easily.

Rimmy wrote:you're all first assuminng that everyone plays Space Wolves. so for the majority of us NON canine's out there, it can be a valuable tool.

We're all answering the OP, who plays Space Wolves. Yes, regular devestators aren't as attractive as Long Fangs and that makes the other options comparatively more viable in other armies but that's off topic for this discussion.

Raxmei wrote:

Rimmy wrote:you're all first assuminng that everyone plays Space Wolves. so for the majority of us NON canine's out there, it can be a valuable tool.

We're all answering the OP, who plays Space Wolves. Yes, regular devestators aren't as attractive as Long Fangs and that makes the other options comparatively more viable in other armies but that's off topic for this discussion.

I still stand by my argument. it CAN be a useful too, but it depends on what you are trying to DO in the first place.

no as an offensive weapon likely not. as a defensive weapon its probably so so with the doggies.

I will be honest, I am not a canine player and have not devoted enough time to getting to know their weapons and tactics so I can be way off base in the particulars.

suffice to say, the whirlwind has merit, but the the SW have a more distinct set of advantages.

If you play MEQ or TEQ a lot, then the pie plates won't do much. As others have said, it competes with Long Fangs for a Heavy slot. For other Marines, it typcially competes with Vindicators or Predators for a Heavy slot.

Taking 2 or 3 can be great against certain armies, but in general you won't see them. I've taken 3 to a tournament a few times only to play MEQ in every game. Sigh.

Whirlwind has no use in an all comers list. It doesn't do anything to non-hoard armies and robs you of valuable heavy support slots. The only time its worth it is when you know in advance what your opponent is taking. You can call it list tailoring, fair game what ever you want, I personally see it as cheating thats just my opinion (and im not the only one who sees it that way). The guy only asked about space wolves but i did throw in an SM alternative on top of it. I don't care how much fineness you have MC's and tanks don't care about a single str 5 hit coming from a rhino chassis and neither are rare in an all comers list.

no argument about the MC's but its not a large platform weapon, its an infantry weapon. just a mobile heavy weapons platform, thats all.

there is obviously a difference in opinion on what is cheating here. I will leave that beast for another thread that I am sure exists and is probably 1000 posts long.

suffice to say, an "all corners" army, will not have the strength of a focused attack, and thats to be expected.

the whirlwind at its finest, is not a focused attack weapon, and therefore isn't much good at anything other than moving troops away from a firing position.

I went with a No on this one because they're just too situational.

They're just too hard to hit with. I've had 2 taken against my Orks a few times and even when they do land they're not strong enough to really do serious damage to a mob of Boyz.

Like many people are saying they just don't pull their weight compared to Longfangs or a Pred (not that I put much stock in Preds, but that's just my experience).

I've said it before and I'll say it again, if you could take a squad of 3 then they'd be worth it, as it stands the lone whirlwind just doesn't tow the line.

I play vanilla SM (and am still a relatively new player), but I never have an issue with not enough Heavy Support Slots./

I don't care how much fineness you have MC's and tanks don't care about a single str 5 hit coming from a rhino chassis and neither are rare in an all comers list.

This. For the same points cost (in vanilla) you get a dakka pred which is more threatening vs infantry and can damage low AV's reliably. As cromwest has said against mech and competent players (spacing models) blasts don't mean that much, especially S4/5 ones.

Finesse and tactics are all good and well, but don't mean much when your tools are ineffectual.

and yet history will show you that people with inferior tools have dominated battles for centuries using wit and cunning instead of brute strength.

consider what the whirlwind can do for you.:

indirect fire, the ability to shoot and NOT be in line of sight of an approacing enemy

pinning! need we forget pinning? (granted, this is also mostly a horde tactic)

getting any model lost is a loss unto its self, so whether or not it takes out 50 or 1, its slowing you down and dwindling the forces.

I say it CAN be effectual, but it is entirely dependant on your style of game play and the terrain and your opponent.

either way, happy hunting, great discussion.

This isn't history this is a game with a fixed rules set which gives it very predictable results. The whirlwind is a relic from past editions where you could field hoards of infantry and reasonably expect to win. This is no longer the case. Most foot armies that arn't tyranids have serious issues with fighting mech and most mech armies have more than enough tools to blow a hoard of boyz off the table with strait up shooting and not rely on indirect weapons that have to roll full scatter. The only two classic hoard armies that have a 5th edition update thus far are IG and Nids. IG is best with alot of tanks and definitely the most common of the IG builds put most of their guys in transports. Nids on the other hand rely even more on T6 models than ever before. This leaves hoard orks which despite ridiculous internet claims have some serious issues in 5th ed. The whirlwind is a counter to an out dated tactic and unless orcs get an update it looks like its going to stay that way. When people come to the tactics board I try my best to save them money. Having personally bought a few whirlwinds (and then latter converted them into razorbacks) I think im on pretty solid ground when I say they are a total waste. One last point. Fielding units that are highly situational, static and wildly inaccurate and questionably effective on their intended target might be the polar opposite of finesse. Good generalship starts at the list building phase.

The "No" camp is already well represented, but I have to agree and say until you can squadron them @ 60pts each, Whirlwinds will continue to be a weak unit

cromwest wrote:This isn't history this is a game with a fixed rules set which gives it very predictable results. The whirlwind is a relic from past editions where you could field hoards of infantry and reasonably expect to win. This is no longer the case. Most foot armies that arn't tyranids have serious issues with fighting mech and most mech armies have more than enough tools to blow a hoard of boyz off the table with strait up shooting and not rely on indirect weapons that have to roll full scatter. The only two classic hoard armies that have a 5th edition update thus far are IG and Nids. IG is best with alot of tanks and definitely the most common of the IG builds put most of their guys in transports. Nids on the other hand rely even more on T6 models than ever before. This leaves hoard orks which despite ridiculous internet claims have some serious issues in 5th ed. The whirlwind is a counter to an out dated tactic and unless orcs get an update it looks like its going to stay that way. When people come to the tactics board I try my best to save them money. Having personally bought a few whirlwinds (and then latter converted them into razorbacks) I think im on pretty solid ground when I say they are a total waste. One last point. Fielding units that are highly situational, static and wildly inaccurate and questionably effective on their intended target might be the polar opposite of finesse. Good generalship starts at the list building phase.

and while you are completely entitled to your opinion, I will continue to respectfully disagree.

to say they have NO value is wildly inaccurate. you said yourself they have value under certain circumstances.

some of us relic's remember when the whirlwind meant serious problems with advancement.

I will concede that recent changes in the rules set have created a hole around the WW's ability to maintain its powerd, but to say its useless is a far shot.

and ALL wargaming is based on histories lesson of war. harness the concept and the art of war (no pun intended) and you can succeed regardless.

good generalship might begin at the list building face, but great generalship means utilizing all tools at your disposal effectively.

I am not intending to insult you or suggest that your style and gaming abilities are impaired or inferior in anyway, this is an expansive game with a plethora of possibilities.

its very clear to me that this is not a conversation you can have without insulting you personally. being that is not my original intent nor purpose, I will simply bow out of the discussion. you are free to have the final word if it means that much to you. I will continue to take my antiquated and static approach of poor leadership abilities and clear lack of understanding of warfare and this game elsewhere.

SrA Martin, (former) USAF, Former GW Red Shirt.

LOL Rimmy is totaly trolling you guys, and I am loving it!

Rex-Nine wrote:LOL Rimmy is totaly trolling you guys, and I am loving it!

yea.... OR... hear me out..... I actually feel that way.

Well as a former US Army combat vet and current engineering major I find this game has a lot more in common with gambling than actual war. This game relies heavily on numbers and has a fixed rule set and relies almost exclusively on d6 dice rolls which can be calculated (easily) with basic statistics. Im not attacking anyone im just trying to save people money. I own two of the things and I field them all the time as converted las/plas razorbacks and would suggest anyone else who spent money on them to do the same. I don't feel personally insulted at all by anything you said since it was all about the game it self so don't worry about disagreeing with me I'm the last person on the planet who would get butt hurt about that. However I will take what I said before a step farther and say that in an all comers list whirlwinds are worse than useless because against an all mech force (very common) they have a significant chance of not hurting anything but can still give up a kill point (easily).

The WW might be good but it competes with better things. Simple.
The ability to avoid LOS is kinda pointless since 1 shot doesn't leave a lot of room for inaccuracy and at best having 7 shots in a game every shot will need to count if it is gonna beat its competitors for the HS slot.


For SW the most widely used HS unit is the Long Fang pack equipped with 5 missile launchers.
They are cheap for what you get and with 5 S8 shots a turn can more or less put down anything at AV 12/13.
The option to switch to frag missiles means they can be used against hordes or mech armies which makes them more versatile than the WW.

cromwest wrote:Well as a former US Army combat vet and current engineering major I find this game has a lot more in common with gambling than actual war. This game relies heavily on numbers and has a fixed rule set and relies almost exclusively on d6 dice rolls which can be calculated (easily) with basic statistics. Im not attacking anyone im just trying to save people money. I own two of the things and I field them all the time as converted las/plas razorbacks and would suggest anyone else who spent money on them to do the same. I don't feel personally insulted at all by anything you said since it was all about the game it self so don't worry about disagreeing with me I'm the last person on the planet who would get butt hurt about that. However I will take what I said before a step farther and say that in an all comers list whirlwinds are worse than useless because against an all mech force (very common) they have a significant chance of not hurting anything but can still give up a kill point (easily).

I can respect that. and thank you for your service. I currently work for the VA.

I will also concede the gambling part, but isn't it ALL a gamble at its root?

too bad you're all the way in IL, would love to roll some dice with you.

I used to game with the Drill SGT's when I was stationed at Ft Gordon, THAT was some good dice rolling. they hated losing they hated losing more to an AF A1C.

at any rate being that I can't ACTUALLY field a WW other than when I was playing the stores armies, its really a moot point, other than I still think they CAN be useful. but I will totally concur that they should be a squadable item and less points.

There are several ways to decrease the asect of chance when playing...
Or at least that's what i'm told.

I think the accurate distinction is the Whirlwind is weak compared to the other options available. Say you were given a very limited pool of units and forced to use it, could it serve a purpose? Sure, especially against a horde player. However, that is not how the game is set up and it is nearly always inferior to the rest of the Heavy Support options available, at the very least not useful enough to make an all comers list.
Is it the worst unit in the game, far from it, but it is very very weak in a comparative analysis with Predators, Land Raiders, Vindicators or even Devastators (it is even worse for Space Wolves the nilla marines, which is why I used them as a comparison). Therefore, it is unlikely you will ever use it.

cromwest wrote:However I will take what I said before a step farther and say that in an all comers list whirlwinds are worse than useless because against an all mech force (very common) they have a significant chance of not hurting anything but can still give up a kill point (easily).

This is what I was saying. In a game where you have no idea what you are going to face, why gamble with a situational unit when you can take one that you know will shine in more circumstances? And yes, if you do take a Whirlwind regardless, it can still perform well, but for my money I wouldn't risk it.

I own a Whirlwind for the record, but I use it far more often as a Rhino/Razorback, because the few battles I have used it as a Whirlwind in it was extremely underwhelming.

Like I said; all gw has to do to make whirlwinds sell better is to FAQ them to a squad of 1-3

Whirlwinds are a good solid unit that are very price effective for what they do, but long fangs are stupid under priced for what they do.

schadenfreude wrote:Whirlwinds are a good solid unit that are very price effective for what they do, but long fangs are stupid under priced for what they do.

Then why are Whirlwinds just as absent in any other all-corners Marine list?

Andilus Greatsword wrote:

schadenfreude wrote:Whirlwinds are a good solid unit that are very price effective for what they do, but long fangs are stupid under priced for what they do.

Then why are Whirlwinds just as absent in any other all-corners Marine list?

They cost the same as a dakka pred, which is better against all comers. Plus it sucks. Unless the blast is S6, multiple, or AP3 or better, I personally couldn't care less about it against any of my armies (DE, Marines, Daemons, Orks, GKs, sisters). My personal benchmark on whether take a unit is how threatened I feel facing it. With a whirlwind on the opposite side, I don't feel very threatened at all. Usually because most players who include them also have other fluffy, crappy, or suboptimal units (like van vets or assault marines in vanilla)