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Dark Angels whirlwinds rock.

ignore cover....even hardened cover (3+ cover save).

I say not competitively. They are decent against nids and orks and maybe guard. I would only and will only use them in fun games against my friends


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Doctadeth wrote:Dark Angels whirlwinds rock.

ignore cover....even hardened cover (3+ cover save).

]

Although our whirlwinds aren't too shabby either

Doctadeth wrote:Dark Angels whirlwinds rock.

ignore cover....even hardened cover (3+ cover save).

That's not any different from regular Whirlwinds....

Whirlwinds are to Space Marines as Swooping Hawks are to Eldar. The models look nice and that will get a few to buy them, only to end in disappointment when they're actually fielded.

Unlike swooping hawks they can easily be fielded as a rhino or a razorback so its not that bad of an accidental purchase.

It's time for the Polonius Appliance Analogy! (TM)

Ask yourself this question: is the waffle iron a bad appliance?

No, because it's really the only way to make waffles. To paraphrase the brilliant Lore, they don't make making waffles easy, but they do make waffles possible.

But with skill and practice, you can make a pretty good waffle with a waffle iron.

However! You only have two outlets on your counter in your kitchen. You already own a microwave and a toaster. Should you buy a waffle iron?

I guess it depends how much you like waffles, but ain't nobody using a waffle iron more than a toaster.

The whirlwind is a classic waffle iron unit: only good in certain situations and even then not all that good at it without a ton of effort.

Polonius, I love you for that post.

No discussion of unit value is complete without looking at the costs, both actual and opportunity.

Yeah, in a vacuum, every unit in the game has uses. Only a few are actually detrimental (space pope?). Look at a unit like Vespids: universally thought of as trash. If you took the same unit and made them troops for 10pts a piece, they'd be decent! OTOH, they could be 6pts a piece, but if they were in the heavy support slot they'd limit the rail guns you could take, and would suck again.

In every codex, whirlwinds compete on points, just like any unit. The value for the points is debatable, I think they're still underpowered/overpriced, but YMMV. the bigger problem is the heavy support competition. If they were squadronable, or could be taken as a "free" heavy... they'd be a fun buy, and wouldn't be bad.

Polonius wrote:It's time for the Polonius Appliance Analogy! (TM)

Ask yourself this question: is the waffle iron a bad appliance?

No, because it's really the only way to make waffles. To paraphrase the brilliant Lore, they don't make making waffles easy, but they do make waffles possible.

But with skill and practice, you can make a pretty good waffle with a waffle iron.

However! You only have two outlets on your counter in your kitchen. You already own a microwave and a toaster. Should you buy a waffle iron?

I guess it depends how much you like waffles, but ain't nobody using a waffle iron more than a toaster.

The whirlwind is a classic waffle iron unit: only good in certain situations and even then not all that good at it without a ton of effort.

^
|
winning.

Polonius wrote:No discussion of unit value is complete without looking at the costs, both actual and opportunity.

Yeah, in a vacuum, every unit in the game has uses. Only a few are actually detrimental (space pope?). Look at a unit like Vespids: universally thought of as trash. If you took the same unit and made them troops for 10pts a piece, they'd be decent! OTOH, they could be 6pts a piece, but if they were in the heavy support slot they'd limit the rail guns you could take, and would suck again.

In every codex, whirlwinds compete on points, just like any unit. The value for the points is debatable, I think they're still underpowered/overpriced, but YMMV. the bigger problem is the heavy support competition. If they were squadronable, or could be taken as a "free" heavy... they'd be a fun buy, and wouldn't be bad.

That's an excellent point, but are codex marine HS slots a competitive slot? Elites slots in the nid codex are highly competitive, not so much in IG. IG fast attack slots are usually all filled with vendettas, and it's really hard for any other unit to compete, but fast attacks are not in short supply in a nid codex. A really good codex such as IG can remain competitive while completely removing 1 force org (fast, heavy, or elite). I don't think codex marines need to fill all 3 of their heavy support slots. In a SW army they have to compete against long fangs. In a BA army they are overpriced because what's the point of a fast whirlwind? That only leaves codex marines, and then the real trouble that they run into is they have to compete against the thunderfire cannon which is more versatile and better at what the whirlwind does.

schadenfreude wrote:

Polonius wrote:No discussion of unit value is complete without looking at the costs, both actual and opportunity.

Yeah, in a vacuum, every unit in the game has uses. Only a few are actually detrimental (space pope?). Look at a unit like Vespids: universally thought of as trash. If you took the same unit and made them troops for 10pts a piece, they'd be decent! OTOH, they could be 6pts a piece, but if they were in the heavy support slot they'd limit the rail guns you could take, and would suck again.

In every codex, whirlwinds compete on points, just like any unit. The value for the points is debatable, I think they're still underpowered/overpriced, but YMMV. the bigger problem is the heavy support competition. If they were squadronable, or could be taken as a "free" heavy... they'd be a fun buy, and wouldn't be bad.

That's an excellent point, but are codex marine HS slots a competitive slot? Elites slots in the nid codex are highly competitive, not so much in IG. IG fast attack slots are usually all filled with vendettas, and it's really hard for any other unit to compete, but fast attacks are not in short supply in a nid codex. A really good codex such as IG can remain competitive while completely removing 1 force org (fast, heavy, or elite). I don't think codex marines need to fill all 3 of their heavy support slots. In a SW army they have to compete against long fangs. In a BA army they are overpriced because what's the point of a fast whirlwind? That only leaves codex marines, and then the real trouble that they run into is they have to compete against the thunderfire cannon which is more versatile and better at what the whirlwind does.

Whirlwinds also compete with the Dakka Pred, which also targets infantry and can take out medium transport, plus being more survivable (for the same amount of points). Or Vindicators, if you want anti-horde on your HS slot (which can also double as anti-vehicle).

Agreed. I've only ever fielded my Whirlwind twice, and one of those times was because it was a mega battle where we had limited infantry choices and unlimited vehicles for some stupid reason. They're such an underwhelming weapon, even against hordes imo.

No. If you could squadron them...maybe.