Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

My question essentially is do these exist (or if not named, does established fluff support their existence)? I feel like they probably don't, because it is hypothesized their geneseed is directly derived from the Emperor. However, they essentially function in near identical ways to more traditional Chapters, so perhaps they could found chapters using their geneseed similarly. My only problem with this is having more than one chapter of Astartes under their thumb may give the Inquisition a bit too much power. Thoughts?

No. There is not, nor likely ever will be, a Grey Knight Successor Chapter.

There is also no established fluff at all that can support their existence.

While Grey Knights are organized like a 'normal' Chapter, there is absolutely nothing beyond organization that ties them to normal Chapters. They are like the Custodes, not the average Astartes.

The Inquisition having too much power? I don't think power is something that they are in short supply of.
If more psychic marines were required then they'd simply enlarge the size of the organisation, no reason to duplicate it elsewhere.
The biggest problem with increasing their numbers, let alone doubling them is that they mind wipe or kill people they come across which would mean twice as many victims would fall prey to their odd way of doing things.

Before anyone else mentions it.
The Exorcists are not a GK successor.
They could be said to be spiritual successors in their area of specialities but that is it.

cadbren wrote:The Inquisition having too much power? I don't think power is something that they are in short supply of.
If more psychic marines were required then they'd simply enlarge the size of the organisation, no reason to duplicate it elsewhere.
The biggest problem with increasing their numbers, let alone doubling them is that they mind wipe or kill people they come across which would mean twice as many victims would fall prey to their odd way of doing things.

They don't "mindwipe or kill people they come across" on a whim. They really only do it to anyone directly being exposed to some kind of daemonic taint.

Pretty sure they do it to anyone who has fought against the forces of chaos where they themselves have been fighting.

Which isn't what you said.

Mindwiping or killing people they come across is different than people exposed to some kind of daemonic taint.

It's also worth noting that the majority of cases, mindwiping won't happen.

No successor chapters for GK.

This "OMGGreyKnightskilleveryonewhoseesademonorwatchesthemfightwhatawfulguys" business is getting out of hand. Yes, the Grey Knights kill people, innocent people even. But they kill people who are exposed to actual, spawned in the Warp, no crap for-real demons. The people they execute aren't capable of handling that, by and large. As has been seen time and again, for most, even exposure to the Warp is enough to corrupt, and the Grey Knights just take a very pragmatic approach to solving that problem. They don't kill everyone who sees them. They don't kill people who are known to be able to handle it (or even less susceptible than most).

And they do not, and probably will never, have successor Chapters.

Speaking of the Inquisition...

... by the book, that is to say, when one takes into account the authority to command forces, suborn Imperial resources and call upon its various Adeptus and Ordos, and take action, with little recourse, in the Emperor's Name...

... the Inquisition is, by far, the most powerful organization in the entire Imperium.

While this may be difficult to prove "in practice", no other group within the Imperium commands both the fear and authority that the Inquisition does. An Inquisitor *can*, technically, walk up to the Chapter Master of, say, the Ultramarines, flash his rosette, and have the entire UM at his beck and call to go wipe out heretics or xenos or whatever. Realistically speaking, no Inquisitor is going to be so crude or brash... and will, instead, rely on diplomacy to request the aid of the Ultramarines... but they certainly have the authority to do it.

An Inquisitor may, with sufficient evidence, have a Chapter declared Traitorus Excommunicatus, rendering them renegade. They can consign entire planets to death by Exterminatus at a word. They can commandeer an entire sector's battlefleet, should they need it.

...that said, while there are many people in the body politic of the Imperium that may fear the Inquisition having even more power, there's very, very little they can do about it.

Psienesis wrote:Speaking of the Inquisition...

... by the book, that is to say, when one takes into account the authority to command forces, suborn Imperial resources and call upon its various Adeptus and Ordos, and take action, with little recourse, in the Emperor's Name...

... the Inquisition is, by far, the most powerful organization in the entire Imperium.

While this may be difficult to prove "in practice", no other group within the Imperium commands both the fear and authority that the Inquisition does. An Inquisitor *can*, technically, walk up to the Chapter Master of, say, the Ultramarines, flash his rosette, and have the entire UM at his beck and call to go wipe out heretics or xenos or whatever. Realistically speaking, no Inquisitor is going to be so crude or brash... and will, instead, rely on diplomacy to request the aid of the Ultramarines... but they certainly have the authority to do it.

An Inquisitor may, with sufficient evidence, have a Chapter declared Traitorus Excommunicatus, rendering them renegade. They can consign entire planets to death by Exterminatus at a word. They can commandeer an entire sector's battlefleet, should they need it.

...that said, while there are many people in the body politic of the Imperium that may fear the Inquisition having even more power, there's very, very little they can do about it.

Two things:

1. Marines don't give a feth about an Inquisitorial Rosette, Inquisitors have tried flashing that thing to get things done, and thus far I have not seen an instance where it works. There are certain Chapters that will never work with the Inquisition, Dark Angels being one of them. Inquisitors are limited entirely to requesting help, and it is not always given, in fact I think it seems Space Marines are more likely to not assist an Inquisitor, although this certainly does vary by chapter, Exorcists having a very close relation to the Ordo Malleus. There are also instances in the fluff of Space Marines withdrawing their forces from Inquisitorial control over the objections of an Inquisitor.

2. Inquisitors have varying degrees of power. Theoretically speaking, any Inquisitor can take control of a military force (with the exception of Adeptus Mechanicus and Adeptus Atartes forces who are, once again, independent forces capable of withdrawing at will), however the Inquisitor in question usually answers to a higher ranking Inquisitor who may or may not deny that Inquisitor the authority to do so given the circumstances.

I'm not sure where the idea that Astartes were autonomous was introduced, but it's the most idiotic thing in the entirety of the already silly 40k mythos. Hmm, we just had a huge rebellion of half of these guys, we institute the Codex Astartes to dissolve their power base, but then give them complete autonomy to do whatever?

If they were completely autonomous, they wouldn't have to present samples of geneseed to the Administratum. And yes, some chapters are notoriously lax in contributing this tithe, but the Administratum is a ponderous thing, and those chapters are usually too dangerous and/or too useful to simply dispose of. As long as they are not actively working against the interests of the Imperium, and occasionally destroy some Xenos or Chaos or whatnot, the expenditure of resources to wipe them out is inefficient. Of course, if push comes to shove, there have been plenty of chapters that were either entirely annihilated, or sent on suicide penance missions as punishment for their failures.

Yeah, no. Doesn't quite work that way. You see, the Departmento Munitorium or whatever the hell is called is responsible for the majority of military forces in the Imperium. These are the forces that the Inquisition has ultimate authority over. The Adeptus Mechanicus and Adeptus Astartes are ALWAYS shown as being requested by military commanders, and they are turned down just as frequently as they are aided. And even when Ad Mech or Astartes answer the call, the background is FULL of examples of Astartes withdrawing their forces for their own personal reason. The background is also full of examples of Astartes that have come to the aid of other Imperial forces but maintain their own separate command structures and engage only on their terms and not on those of the campaigns/crusades command.

That has been official fluff since the Rogue Trader days, so if you dont like it take it up with GW circa 1990. And really, it makes perfect sense when you think about it. Following the heresy all the military forces of the Imperium were subdivided and essential made (semi)autonomous entities to prevent heresy from occurring again. To further limit the power of the Astartes they were broken into Chapters of about 1000 marines each, so that if one rebelled they wouldn't be able to rampage across the Imperium unopposed. See Badab War for examples of how that system works.

The only person in the Imperium, barring the word of the Emperor, who has authority over the Astartes is the sitting High Lord of Terra/the Master of the Administratum.

Considering the Inquisition bear the authority of the Emperor, that would mean they have authority over Astartes.

And drawing the distinction of "Astartes don't listen to the Adeptus Terra... except for the guy in charge of it" doesn't make any sense.

purplefood wrote:Before anyone else mentions it.
The Exorcists are not a GK successor.
They could be said to be spiritual successors in their area of specialities but that is it.

The short story "Headhunted" disagrees with you.

1. Marines don't give a feth about an Inquisitorial Rosette, Inquisitors have tried flashing that thing to get things done, and thus far I have not seen an instance where it works. There are certain Chapters that will never work with the Inquisition, Dark Angels being one of them. Inquisitors are limited entirely to requesting help, and it is not always given, in fact I think it seems Space Marines are more likely to not assist an Inquisitor, although this certainly does vary by chapter, Exorcists having a very close relation to the Ordo Malleus. There are also instances in the fluff of Space Marines withdrawing their forces from Inquisitorial control over the objections of an Inquisitor.

Chapters that behave in this manner quickly find themselves on "penitent crusades" or declared Excommunicatus. The entire Deathwatch Chapter is a prime example, however, of an Inquisitor flashing his rosette and getting what he wants, that being a Kill-Team or three to wipe out a Xeno infestation. Same thing with the Grey Knights and Daemonic threats. Inquisitors, however, are not stupid. They know that it does them very little good to approach the Astartes with hubris, and so they follow the previously-mentioned "diplomatic route", as it's easier to catch more flies with honey than it is with vinegar. There's also the fact that, when it comes down to it, very few Inquisitors are as combat-capable as a Space Marine (and those that are are generally that way because of Plot Devices, which not even the Mechanicus can compete with). Even if you have the authority to boss the Space Marines around, it is the unwise Inquisitor who does so, because Inquisitors require an excruciator kit to tear someone's arm out of its socket, Space Marines need no such tools.

Yes, sometimes, the Astartes will withdraw over the objections of the Inquisitor "on the ground", but this is done because there are other events that require their attention that the Inquisitor is unaware of. In the subsequent Inquiry, it has been determined that the withdrawal of the Marines was the best course of action, all things considered.

If it is found that this wasn't in the best interests of the Inquisitorial action, then things get interesting. Generally, however, given the might of the Astartes and their value to the Imperium as a whole, such actions result in little more than a nasty-gram from the Grand Master of the Inquisition in that sector. It's not worth it to the Inquisition to get involved in a civil war against an Astartes Chapter, though they have the authority to do so.

Inquisitors have varying degrees of power. Theoretically speaking, any Inquisitor can take control of a military force (with the exception of Adeptus Mechanicus and Adeptus Atartes forces who are, once again, independent forces capable of withdrawing at will), however the Inquisitor in question usually answers to a higher ranking Inquisitor who may or may not deny that Inquisitor the authority to do so given the circumstances.

Sort of. On paper, and with regards to the rest of the Imperium, who are not Inquisitors, one Inquisitor has as much power and authority as another. Internally, however, yes, Inquisitors serve Lord Inquisitors who serve Ordo Masters and so forth and so on in a dizzying system of feudal obligations, titles, alliances and rivalries.

Some Inquisitors may, by stint of past actions, previous association or whatever, have more influence with a given body than another. For example, an Inquisitor who was once a Commissar will be able to get on with the Imperial Guard or the Commissariat better than one who came up through the courts of Upper Hive nobility on some Pleasure World. By the same token, an Inquisitor who was, previous to his induction into the Ordo, an Adept at some library-world, may have great sway in the Administratum, and know the right forms, phrases and people to push through all the red tape.

However, any Inquisitor can still walk into an Administratum office, flash his rosette, and command entire data-stacks to be deleted, with no questions asked. This may piss some people off, but his order stands. Any censure for this action will be handled internally by the courts of the Inquisition, the Adept on the ground doesn't have the authority over the Inquisitor making the demand to "check with his superiors". To pose such a question will generally result in the Adept's brain evacuating his skull, followed very soon after by a round from a bolt-pistol, and the Inquisitor turning to the next-in-command and posing the order once more.

And, no, Astartes are not independent from the Imperium, as much as some Chapters would like to think or act like they are. Even the Ultramarines, who act as the barons of the entire eastern half of the Imperium, are not an independent organization from the whole.

Is that the one with the Deathwatch? IIRC, it never actually says that they are Grey Knight successors, it just points to it. IA10 which is a more official source than black library novels, etc. says that the origins of the Exorcists are a closely guarded secret.

Omegus - Deal with it. Thats pretty much official stuff, I know you don't like it, but the fluff has already established the patterns of behavior that reinforce the existence of this situation.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Psienesis wrote:

1. Marines don't give a feth about an Inquisitorial Rosette, Inquisitors have tried flashing that thing to get things done, and thus far I have not seen an instance where it works. There are certain Chapters that will never work with the Inquisition, Dark Angels being one of them. Inquisitors are limited entirely to requesting help, and it is not always given, in fact I think it seems Space Marines are more likely to not assist an Inquisitor, although this certainly does vary by chapter, Exorcists having a very close relation to the Ordo Malleus. There are also instances in the fluff of Space Marines withdrawing their forces from Inquisitorial control over the objections of an Inquisitor.

Chapters that behave in this manner quickly find themselves on "penitent crusades" or declared Excommunicatus. The entire Deathwatch Chapter is a prime example, however, of an Inquisitor flashing his rosette and getting what he wants, that being a Kill-Team or three to wipe out a Xeno infestation. Same thing with the Grey Knights and Daemonic threats. Inquisitors, however, are not stupid. They know that it does them very little good to approach the Astartes with hubris, and so they follow the previously-mentioned "diplomatic route", as it's easier to catch more flies with honey than it is with vinegar. There's also the fact that, when it comes down to it, very few Inquisitors are as combat-capable as a Space Marine (and those that are are generally that way because of Plot Devices, which not even the Mechanicus can compete with). Even if you have the authority to boss the Space Marines around, it is the unwise Inquisitor who does so, because Inquisitors require an excruciator kit to tear someone's arm out of its socket, Space Marines need no such tools.

Yes, sometimes, the Astartes will withdraw over the objections of the Inquisitor "on the ground", but this is done because there are other events that require their attention that the Inquisitor is unaware of. In the subsequent Inquiry, it has been determined that the withdrawal of the Marines was the best course of action, all things considered.

If it is found that this wasn't in the best interests of the Inquisitorial action, then things get interesting. Generally, however, given the might of the Astartes and their value to the Imperium as a whole, such actions result in little more than a nasty-gram from the Grand Master of the Inquisition in that sector. It's not worth it to the Inquisition to get involved in a civil war against an Astartes Chapter, though they have the authority to do so.

Tell that to the Space Wolves, Dark Angels and the rest of the Unforgiven, amongst others. There are more than enough chapters that are still in the Imperium's good graces that have all but told Inquisitors to feth off and have suffered no repurcussions because of it. The Grey Knights were created to more or less be the lap dogs of the Inquisition. Death Watch are pretty much the same, but they aren't a chapter, they are a conclave of Space Marine chapters, but not every Marine Chapter participates in the 'deathwatch exchange'. Exorcists (seem to be) a similar case to the Grey Knights, but thats all rumors as of now.

Yes, the Inquisition does have the authority to declare a chapter excommunicate traitoris, but do you know how rare that is? Yes, it seems to be really common, but its really not. Hell, half the Chapters that fought against the Imperium in the Badab War were not declared excommunicate traitoris. Yes, they were punished in other ways, but they outright rebelled against the Imperium and they weren't all put to the sword.

Actually, I think I won't just "deal with it". It flies in the face of logic and multiple examples in the fluff. Space Wolves? The most they've ever done was grumble about the Inquisition's heavy-handed tactics with the Armageddon survivors. The Dark Angels, the most useless of all chapters, slink around the outskirts of the Imperium, and basically run from any fight involving the Inqusition because they fear what secrets may be discovered. I'm sure they have very reasonable-sounding excuses for doing so.

Again, from your own words, it doesn't make sense for them to not listen to a body of authority... except for the head of said body. /boggle

Well, from what I understand the Inquisition is only answerable to the Emperor, not even the High Lords tell them what to do, which leads us into quite a conundrum...

You know, Im starting to suspect that a complete idiot created the Imperial hierarchy.

chaos0xomega wrote:Well, from what I understand the Inquisition is only answerable to the Emperor, not even the High Lords tell them what to do, which leads us into quite a conundrum...

Eh, technically, but even renowned Inquisitors know to be polite with high ranking members of the Administratum (see Ravenor's interactions with the Lord Governor and his second, for example). Those high ranking members likely have contacts/friends/acquaintances in the Inqusition that may well outrank you (see Eisenhorn being bossed around by his superiors).

You know, Im starting to suspect that a complete idiot created the Imperial hierarchy.

The Emperor was never the sharpest knife in the drawer.

nobody wrote:

purplefood wrote:Before anyone else mentions it.
The Exorcists are not a GK successor.
They could be said to be spiritual successors in their area of specialities but that is it.

The short story "Headhunted" disagrees with you.

I read it. It says nothing about them being a successor chapter in anything barring their speciality.

Omegus wrote:
Again, from your own words, it doesn't make sense for them to not listen to a body of authority... except for the head of said body. /boggle

Not sure where you're from, but consider the US Army and it's relation to the government.

A commander on the ground doesn't give two gaks for what a visiting Congressman thinks about the war (at least from an operational standpoint-- that congressman has no authority over the commander, even though he can "investigate" that commander--much like an Inquisitor has no direct authority over a Chapter Master).

Now, that same commander will jump to attention and follow the order of the President, as he is the head of the executive branch, of which the Army is a part. But if an Occupational Safety and Health Administration member showed up trying to boss a commander around... not much would happen, as that part of the executive is wholly separate from the Army.

It's not unreasonable to picture the Imperial system of governance to operate similarly-- Astartes have the utmost in latitude to act as they see fit, to the point of ignoring Inquisitorial directives. But, should the High Lords step in, even a fractious chapter master is likely to bend the knee.

I'm under the impression that the Marines should bow to the authority of the Inquisition - that all the Imperial forces are meant to be. But because of how powerful Space Marines commanders are, and how vital each chapter is, they can safely ignore Inquisitors orders and no one can do much about it. No one can enforce any kind of punishment on a Chapter that doesn't affect it's fighting capacity.

And when Inquistor's suspect Heresy, they tend to show up with there own army to back up there orders...often including another Marine Chapter, or even Grey Knights or Sisters of Battle.

For the topic...it should be noted that the current structure of the Grey Knights, as a thousand strong Chapter, is new to this codex. Originally the Knights were several thousand strong, one of the largest Chapters with the possible exception of the Space Wolves and Black Templars, and they had Grey Knights located all over the Galaxy, sometimes in as little as five men squads, waiting for news of an incursion. There were enough Knights to cover a good chunk of the Galaxy, and as such they had no need of a successor chapter. Especially given there rides were the finest ships of the Navy, crewed by the finest crews, and carrying enough fire power to enact Extermiatus if that five man squad wasn't enough. Now that they're limited to Codex numbers by the Mighty Matt Ward's Imagination of Recursive Stupidity they might get one, but I'd strongly doubt it.

chaos0xomega wrote:Is that the one with the Deathwatch? IIRC, it never actually says that they are Grey Knight successors, it just points to it. IA10 which is a more official source than black library novels, etc. says that the origins of the Exorcists are a closely guarded secret.

Actually, that's not really how 40K canon works. It's a common misconception, and a bit of a holdover from a darker past, though. Black Library novels are no less official than Forge World sourcebooks or games studio codices. They do have a higher instance of deviation from mainstream perception of lore, but that's because they're thirty times longer than a codex, with fifty times as much detail. They're a narrow but deep slice of the IP, whereas a codex is a broad, vague overview of a huge chunk of it.

In your specific example, it could be argued that the Exorcist character is wrong (I'd agree with you, too), but that's not because there are any imaginary tiers of 40K canon, but because he's a single character voicing a subjective opinion with no evidence (and one that we know is also contradicted by other, more recent, sources).

I did an article on this a while back, which you might find worth a glance. http://www.boomtron.com/2011/03/grimdark-ii-loose-canon/

purplefood wrote:

nobody wrote:

purplefood wrote:Before anyone else mentions it.
The Exorcists are not a GK successor.
They could be said to be spiritual successors in their area of specialities but that is it.

The short story "Headhunted" disagrees with you.

I read it. It says nothing about them being a successor chapter in anything barring their speciality.

No, but it does say that the Exorcists have Grey Knights Geneseed.

Wouldn't that make them a successor by default?

Pilau Rice wrote:

purplefood wrote:

nobody wrote:

purplefood wrote:Before anyone else mentions it.
The Exorcists are not a GK successor.
They could be said to be spiritual successors in their area of specialities but that is it.

The short story "Headhunted" disagrees with you.

I read it. It says nothing about them being a successor chapter in anything barring their speciality.

No, but it does say that the Exorcists have Grey Knights Geneseed.

Wouldn't that make them a successor by default?

It doesn't say they have GK geneseed.

purplefood wrote:

Pilau Rice wrote:

purplefood wrote:

nobody wrote:

purplefood wrote:Before anyone else mentions it.
The Exorcists are not a GK successor.
They could be said to be spiritual successors in their area of specialities but that is it.

The short story "Headhunted" disagrees with you.

I read it. It says nothing about them being a successor chapter in anything barring their speciality.

No, but it does say that the Exorcists have Grey Knights Geneseed.

Wouldn't that make them a successor by default?

It doesn't say they have GK geneseed.

Pretty sure it does, I'll give you the page number when I get back from work. Lexi says p279 but I don't always trust that.

If i'm wrong, i'll eat the book.

I'll check it now.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
It seems the book agrees...
However nothing else mentions that.

purplefood wrote:I'll check it now.

It seems the book agrees...
However nothing else mentions that.

Nope, the IA article hinted at ties between the two, but that's it.

So, Grey Knights successor?

Anything mentioned in their Codex about the Exorcists?

Yes ties, spiritual successor, successor in purpose. Does it say that Grey Knight geneseed was used?