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I recently got into WHFB and bought the IoB to start a skaven army. My plan is to expand this into a 2000 pts Clan Skryre list.

So my question is this: I don't want to buy bad units, and so what would be a good way to expand the IoB skaven into this sort of list?

I hope this is the right forum.

Just get your self a metric gakload of clan rats/slaves and a couple of hell pits with some gutter runners thrown in and you have a good solid army.

I thought I heard that runners sucked? Or was that just night runners?
Is there any way to play a good skaven list without hell pits?

Night runners suck.

Ya you can use warp lightning cannons and doom wheels instead.

I'll just think of a list in a moment then and post it. I know night runners suck, but do gutter runners?

I havent seen them fail yet as far as I have seen they have earned their points back.

Gutter runners are good if you take them in small units. The Night Runners are not considered as good because they serve the same role, but cost 5 points more each. They are basically suicidal anti-warmachine units, and so the cheaper the better.

As far as actual advise, start with two Warp lightning cannons and a DOOMROCKET. I consider DOOMROCKETs to be mandatory for a skyre list. In the three games I have had a chance to use it, it missed once, and has killed a total of 38 models the other two times. Take the WE with the DR and you will not regret it. (ok, maybe the 1/36 times it blows up in your face).

Skyre tend to be more shooty than hitty, so take slaves to tarpit, a couple of units of clanrats to bunker your characters and take warmachines. Warp Fire Throwers and Plague Wind Mortars are generally acknowledged as the best, but I think Ratling Guns can also be quite effective...just always always stop after rolling three dice.

I also suggest taking a small unit of Poison Globadiers so you can take another PWM for cheap. I don't take more than five anymore ever since I lost 5/7 in one round of throwing globes...they blow themselves up, you know.

Doomwheels are more fun than effective from what I have seen/read/heard...I've only used mine once, though, so YMMV.

I reccomend getting one more IoB Skaven set, as it will provide you with enough Clanrats to get you started, as well as another PWM and WFT and an extra WE.

Alright then, here's a list to start critiquing.

It says in the army book that gutter runners are 12 points each, and night runners are 7.
Lords & Heroes

Grey Seer - 240
(Magic Items?)

Chieftain - 72
Battle Standard
Halberd

Warlock Engineer - 45
Doomrocket

Warlock Engineer - 45
Doomrocket


Core

Clanrats x40 - 250
Warpfire Thrower
Shields

Clanrats x40 - 250
Warpfire Thrower
Shields

Clanrats x40 - 245
Poisoned Wind Mortar
Shields

Slaves x40 - 80

Special

Gutter Runners x8 - 96

Poisoned Wind Globadiers x5 - 115
Poisoned Wind Mortar

Rare

Warp Lightning Cannon - 90

Warp Lightning Cannon - 90

Total: 2020 Points

Only one Doomrocket per army, I'm afraid. Other than that pretty solid except a few nit picks:

1. Get your BSB some defensive magic items. I usually run him with the Charmed Shield + Talisman of Preservation. He's as important as your general, if not more so.

2. Gutter Runners work best with Slings + Poison. With their Sneaky Infiltrators rule, they can basically pop in, pelt a war machine with poisoned slings and kill it in a single round. They're also great for taking down high toughness targets like a Steam Tank, Giant, or Sphinx (although the Sphinx generally has a save, I believe...).

3. At 2,000 points you can probably drop the clan rats to 30 rat squads to save some points. Use those points to grab some gear for your characters. A level 1 warlock engineer with the Warp Energy Condenser isn't a bad investment either.

4. Commands on your Clan Rats. The Champion is up to you, but you definitely want the unit standard (for the bonus combat res) and the musician (for fast reforms and so you don't lose on ties). I'd grab a musician for the slaves as well.


Other than that, pretty standard solid list.

Lords & Heroes
Grey Seer - 240

Chieftain - 72
Battle Standard
Halberd
Enchanted Shield

Warlock Engineer - 45
Doomrocket

Warlock Engineer - 65
Level 1 Wizard

Core
Clanrats x30 - 224
Warpfire Thrower
Shields
Standard Bearer
Musician

Clanrats x30 - 224
Warpfire Thrower
Shields
Standard Bearer
Musician

Clanrats x30 - 217
Poisoned Wind Mortar
Shields
Standard Bearer
Musician

Slaves x40 - 80

Special
Gutter Runners x8 - 144
Slings
Poisoned Weapons

Poisoned Wind Globadiers x5 - 115
Poisoned Wind Mortar

Rare
Warp Lightning Cannon - 90
Warp Lightning Cannon - 90

Total: 2014 Points
How's this now?

My bad, I always get them confused, and I was feeling too lazy to get my book...sorry...(I also never use them)

Anyways, your second list looks really solid. The grey seer may be a little vulnerable, so I would try and at least get him the 5+ ward save. Death magic or a miscast can kill him outright otherwise.

Here are my thoughts.

Drop down to four gutter runners plus a champion and use them to hunt war machines in your opponent's back line. Poison attacks are always helpful.

Drop the shields from your clanrats and give them spears. Give them a Champion, too, while you're at it. They're actually supposed to deal damage while they tarpit.

The slaves need a musician in case they need to do a quick reform.

Drop the shield from the Chieftan and give him a 5+ ward save instead.

You should see if you can fit a dispel scroll in there somewhere, just in case.

Why is your WLE with doomrocket cheaper than the basic WLE?

Breotan wrote:Here are my thoughts.
Drop the shields from your clanrats and give them spears.

How exactly am I supposed to do this when all of the IoB clanrats come with WYSIWYG shields and not enough spears?

Breotan wrote:Here are my thoughts.
Drop the shields from your clanrats and give them spears.

Keep the shields.
Statistically shield is better than no shield (3pts for 6 shields saves 1/6 so saves 4.5pts)

The first thing I would do if I were you is read as many of the previous posts as possible on same topic. It is all the same info over and over. Most of it good, but alot of Skaven lists currently are VERY cookie cutter. With that said, the good start to a Skaven army is 2x IOB, 2x Battalion this gives you:
40 rats with spears and shields (1 unit)
40 rats with cc and shield (1 unit)
80 rats with whatever you like
8 rat ogres (which are fun but not tourney worthy)
a bunch of giant rats to make a unit
packmasters to make ogres/giant rats
40 plague monks
2 warlocks
1 warlord
1 chieftain (with minimal converting)
4 of the sexier weapon teams

So assuming you did the smart thing and swap a HE player for his rats for your elves you are 300 in and have a great core start. From here 1 box of night runners will fill your Gutter Runners (the difference between GR and NR is capes in my army, forgot buying all that metal). All the rare choices are good, buy as many as you like to field. Need no more than 15 Globadiers and 0 Jezzails, for 3 units of Globadiers and 0 units of Jezzails. Stormvermin are like ogres, fun to play but unless you enjoy the flavor will not keep up. In my crazy massive Skaven army I have 2 bells... unless you are doing over 10k I think the flavor of the army says 1 is plenty, 2-3 furnances is all you will ever need as well. These 2 kits will also give you the plague priests and grey seer figs you need if you wanna go cheap, also the rat ogre can be converted into alot of neat stuff (master-bred, bonebreaker, etc.). Censer bearers are another sticky wicket, they are such an expensive unit that blows up on contact. If you can convert these from your plague monks. This is all my opinion and of course the best idea is to play with everything and see what wets your whiskers.

susejo239 wrote:

Breotan wrote:Here are my thoughts.
Drop the shields from your clanrats and give them spears.

How exactly am I supposed to do this when all of the IoB clanrats come with WYSIWYG shields and not enough spears?

It really doesn't matter. WYSIWYG isn't as important in fantasy as it is in40K. Just put the spear guys in front ranks and tell your opponent the unit doesn't have shields.

Breotan wrote:

susejo239 wrote:

Breotan wrote:Here are my thoughts.
Drop the shields from your clanrats and give them spears.

How exactly am I supposed to do this when all of the IoB clanrats come with WYSIWYG shields and not enough spears?

It really doesn't matter. WYSIWYG isn't as important in fantasy as it is in40K. Just put the spear guys in front ranks and tell your opponent the unit doesn't have shields.

Gotcha.

I've made your changes, which would be:

Lords & Heroes
Grey Seer - 240
Chieftain (Battle Standard, Halberd) - 62
Warlock Engineer (Doomrocket) - 45
Warlock Engineer (Level 1 Wizard) - 65
Core
Clanrats x30 (Warpfire Thrower, Clawleader, Spears, Shields, Standard Bearer, Musician) - 232
Clanrats x30 (Warpfire Thrower, Clawleader, Shields, Standard Bearer, Musician) - 232
Clanrats x30 (PWM, Clawleader, Shields, Standard Bearer, Musician)- 225
Slaves x40 (Musician) - 80
Special
Gutter Runners x5 (Deathrunner, Slings, Poisoned Weapons) - 144
Poisoned Wind Globadiers x5 (PWM)- 115
Rare
Warp Lightning Cannon - 90
Warp Lightning Cannon - 90
Total: 2001 Points

Thoughts?

@susejo239 - I'd drop the Halberd on the Chieftain and maybe try to squeeze in some defense magic item for him, other than that it's pretty solid.

Doctorcheese has a point in that the Chieftan needs a ward save, but do NOT drop the halberd for it. If you drop anything, drop the Globadiers, get a ward save for your Chieftan and see if you can make your other Warplock Engineer a caster, too. That'll get you a second chance to channel and another spell in the magic phase.

I think the musician is a one point (or half point at least) upgrade so you need to update the cost of your slaves.

I've made your changes (V2.0), which would be:

Lords & Heroes
Grey Seer - 240
Chieftain (Battle Standard, Halberd, Foul Pendant) - 92
Warlock Engineer (Doomrocket, Level 2 Wizard) - 130
Warlock Engineer (Level 1 Wizard) - 65
Core
Clanrats x30 (Warpfire Thrower, Clawleader, Spears, Shields, Standard Bearer, Musician) - 232
Clanrats x30 (Warpfire Thrower, Clawleader, Shields, Standard Bearer, Musician) - 232
Clanrats x30 (PWM, Clawleader, Shields, Standard Bearer, Musician)- 225
Slaves x40 (Musician) - 82
Special
Gutter Runners x5 (Deathrunner, Slings, Poisoned Weapons) - 144
Rare
Warp Lightning Cannon - 90
Warp Lightning Cannon - 90
Total: 2003 Points

I'm sure I'm covered now?

Drop a clanrat out of the block you plan to put your chieftan in and you'll be golden (no sense going OVER points).

Test your build out in a few games but I expect you'll find you don't need both shields and spears in your clanrat units. You should get a feel for what you need after a few games.

I've been trying to understand what your list was lacking...did you realise that it adds up to 1622 points? not 2003? Seemed a bit small for skaven

Now you've got me completely confused.... I calculated 1622 points as well.
I've got some serious work to be done here now.

Your Gutter Runners are also a lot less points than 144.

Haha! I didn't even look at the points. Better recalculate everything to make sure.

Oh man...... I don't even get how I got 2000 points in my first list now...

Edit: Oh man.... you're right... the gutter runners shouldn't even cost that much.

Here are my two Warptokens:

- get that Seer some toys. Sure, the BSB's Hold Your Ground! rule is more important than the general's Inspiring Presence, but your Seer is also a lvl4 Wizard. Protect him.

- One lvl2 Warlock should do you fine at 2000pts. I'd drop the other guy all together. At the very least, the one with the Rocket should be the lvl1 guy. No sense in putting your points where they'll be more likely to blow up.

- your BSB is still pretty vulnerable to me. I usually run the Talisman of Preservation on my Seer, so the Chieftain gets the Foul Pendant, Charmed Shield, Ironcurse Icon, or maybe just the Armour of Destiny.

- and personally, I'd drop a block of Clanrats and swell the ranks of the others. 30 does okay. 40 does better. 50 will survive. You could get yourself another block of Slaves too.

- I'd drop the Deathrunner, actually. For 6 more points, you could just get another model, which means more potential to take down war machines via poisoned sling stones.

- finally, a quick comment on shields versus spears. Shields are a solid choice. As are spears. Both together is more of a gamble.
Six shields cost 3pts. One in six will sucessfully Parry, saving you a Clanrat, who costs 4.5pts. This isn't counting the bonus to your armour.
With spears and shields, you lose the Parry, so now the shields only benefit you versus S4 and less. Still a possible payoff, but not as universal.

Spears, though, always present a possible benefit. And enemies killed, in 8th edition, are always better than allies saved. It's a butcher's race; you can never outlast your opponent, so you need to kill them quick-quick. Of course, most Skaven generals will leave the killing to their...effective units.

I'd keep the Clanrats cheap (one upgrade), and I'd keep the same upgrade from unit to unit.

Here's what your numbers should look like, and with some changes in mind:

- Grey Seer + Talisman of Preservation + Dispel Scroll + Ironcurse Icon (325)

- Warlock Engineer + lvl2 + Doomrocket (130)
- Chieftain + battle standard + halberd + Armour of Destiny (122)

- 50 Clanrats + full command + Warpfire Thrower (315)
- 50 Clanrats + spears + full command + Poisoned Wind Mortar (310)
- 52 Skavenslaves + musician (106)
- 51 Skavenslaves + musician (104)

- 6 Gutter Runners + slings + Poisoned Attacks (108)

- 1 Warp Lightning Cannon (90)
- 1 Warp Lightning Cannon (90)
- 1 Doomwheel (150)
- 1 Doomwheel (150)

Total: 2000, I think. Sorry, it's all been mental-math here.

I personally think the Doomwheel is unwieldy and ineffective, but if Skryre's your game...Globadiers and Jezzails and Ratling Guns and Doom Flayers and Warp-Grinders are not very good. At all.

Warpsolution wrote:- and personally, I'd drop a block of Clanrats and swell the ranks of the others. 30 does okay. 40 does better. 50 will survive. You could get yourself another block of Slaves too.

I find that 35-40 Clanrats as a bunker for characters works pretty well in 2k games. If you want tarpits, Slaves are the better choice. In my lists, I run Clanrats with FC and spears to bunker my Warlord and Chieftan, then use a couple of 50-rat slave blocks to tie up anything I don't want to deal with for a few turns or so.

Just remember, your Clanrats/slaves shouldn't really be used more than 5 wide. Skaven need Steadfast more than they need Horded.

Well, if your Clanrat blocks are big enough, they can bunker your characters and tarpit. As long as your Slaves bog down the units that pose a serious threat to your characters. I've found that, against even decent troops, your opponent will either ignore your characters to better chew through the block (a fleeing unit is generally a dead character, after all), or send in a ton of attacks at your well-protected character, risking the combat (since you're the one with more ranks).
Against anything halfway dangerous, though, send in the Slaves, to be sure.

As for the Horde formation, I'll say this: a big block of Slaves with Death Frenzy and Bless with Filth can win the points-race against...almost anything. It's rather silly, but it works. And while getting those two spells off may seem tough, it's a lot easier than you think, when your opponent is saving dice for the Curse.
If I've got the resources, I've found that some Slave-offense can win me the day faster than if they pinned down the enemy and waited for my Cannons, A-bombs, or Weapon Teams. But usually, 5 wide is the way to go, as you say.