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I am going to a local tournament on the 25th and built this list using every model I own of my HE

Some CnC would be great, as I can pick up one extra box of something, but the Princes will not be removed from the list

Prince 430
General
Griffon
HA + Shield
Vambraces of Defense
Dragon Helm
Lance

Prince 192
Iron Curse
Glittering Scales
GW

Mage 175
Lvl 2
Shadow
Seerstaff
Tali Pro

Noble 168
Armour of Caledor
Guardian Pheonix
GW
BSB

Noble 159
Barded Steed
Dragon Armour + shield
Star Lance
Talisman of Loec

19 Archers 243
LA
Full Com

25 Sea Guard 375
Shields
Full Com
Lion Banner

10 Swordmasters 255
Full Com
Banner of Sorcery
Terrifying mask of EEEE

5 Silver Helms 155
Full Com
Shields

5 Reavers 133
Full Com
Bows

Bolt Thrower 100

Bolt Thrower 100

Grand Total 2485



The silver helms with the mounted noble are the main hammer, using the bolt throwers and bows to thin down the enemy as they advance towards me.
Comments?

Are you really that dead-set on keeping all those Heroes? As I see it, they're really the biggest liabilities of your list.

The main issue with High Elf heroes is that they're incredibly fragile for what they can practically do. Yes, they have high Leadership and decent combat stats, but ultimately, they're T3 and usually without great armor saves.

Regarding the rest of your list:

You've a lot of shooting, which is a refreshing change of pace, though the army as a whole is a bit lacking.

CORE
Not a bad setup, though currently, you're actually just shy of 25% Core.

My recommendation would be to ditch the light armor and champ (also the banner, though if you're really pressed, you could keep it) from the archer unit to buff the Sea Guard unit to 30. That should bump you up to the 25% min.

Also, switch out the Lion Standard with the Banner of Eternal Flame. Those flaming arrows can be REALLY nice against certain armies.


SPECIAL
Reavers really don't need full command. The most they need is a Musician as the other command upgrades are really only going to be points to your opponent as these guys are usually best served NOT in close combat.

At 2500 points, 10 Swordmasters are going to drop quite quickly. If you can find a way to flesh this unit out (18-20 would be nice), I think you'd be better off. Secondly, if you're only going with a single Lvl2, the Banner of Sorcery is a bit wasted, and you'd be much better off just trying to get more troops on the field (if you can)

I will just say that 5 Silver Helms + Mounted Hero will not make much of a hammer as they're not terribly strong, suffer from T3 and will likely be your opponent's 1st priority. Would it be possible to have these "Count As" Dragon Princes? That would help out considerably.


Since you're keen on keeping your heroes, though, here's suggestions for setups:

Griffon Prince -
He's gonna be very vulnerable. This is about the best setup you'll get, though. I'd give him the Iron Curse Icon instead, tbh.

Foot Prince -
Give him the Armor of Protection instead. That 4+ Ward will serve you much better than the -1 to Hit.

Mage -
Talisman of Protection isn't worth the 10 points. Might as well just leave it off of him entirely. Also, what Spells are you aiming to take?

BSB -
You may want to give him the Banner of the World Dragon and stick him in with the LSG or Swordmasters for nice Magic Protection.

Mounted Noble:
Give him a GW instead. It's a lot more consistent and lets you take more defensive items which will be crucial. Helm of Fortune + Guardian Phoenix (assuming you give the BSB the BotWD) can make him stick around for a while.

Few things.. I realize this is your whole collection.. so I'll try to keep that in mind.


1) At 2500 points I would turn the Lvl 2 into a lvl 4 by getting rid of the 10 Swordmasters. Otherwise, you will be charged or charge a block of 30 or so core troops from any book really, kill about 7 guys, get hit back then break because of combat rezz from enemy rank bonuses.

2) Are Prince's Hero choices? If so turn that lvl 2 + swordmaster into Teclis. He's cheesy and lame but he wins tournaments.

3) Mask of EEEE. Can your champs take gear? I don't play HE's but it seems mispaced there, especially with how outgunned a block of 10 swordmasters will be.

Thunderfrog wrote:
1) At 2500 points I would turn the Lvl 2 into a lvl 4 by getting rid of the 10 Swordmasters. Otherwise, you will be charged or charge a block of 30 or so core troops from any book really, kill about 7 guys, get hit back then break because of combat rezz from enemy rank bonuses.

Well, ideally, you wouldn't charge a fully strong block of core troops with the 10 Swordmasters. In a list that's otherwise short on reliable strong-hitters, I'd keep them in (especially since there's enough shooting to help whittle things down), though it'd be better to see more of them.

[qoute]
2) Are Prince's Hero choices? If so turn that lvl 2 + swordmaster into Teclis. He's cheesy and lame but he wins tournaments.

3) Mask of EEEE. Can your champs take gear? I don't play HE's but it seems mispaced there, especially with how outgunned a block of 10 swordmasters will be.

Sadly I can not run a Lvl 3-4 with the Griffon rider though for my Lvl two i was thinking about Pit and Razor most times.

The Mounted noble with Starlances/Loec is one of the best assasins I have ever used on the charge (rerolls to hit always, rerolls to owund at S7 ignores armoursaves and forces to reroll regen/ward, but then he takes a wound) I plan to use him against chaos characters and the like.

I have also found that the mask is great on swordmasters, as when I get the charge a terror test is nice.

you still need to find 7 points of core to meet 25%.

I agree with Jin though. Your griffon prince is a points liability as it's just too easy to kill. I'd say if you are going to spend that much, spring for a dragon so at least you get the breath weapon and armor save.

Silver Helms are suboptimal. Dragon Princes are worlds better for only a few more points.

Bolt Throwers are also suboptimal for their points. Eagles would be better and would open up points for other things like Dragon Princes or a Lion Chariot.

Banner of Sorcery is not too great if you only have a lv 2 mage. 6 levels of magic would benefit the army much more than so many melee characters.

So your advice is to pick up 3 new units and drop alot of my list?

Also I cant use the silverhelms as DPs as the TO said no when I asked him

I'm merely stating facts. I tend to try and min/max my lists instead of writing based on what I own.

When I approach an army list, I write it before I buy a single model. Once I have gotten input on it, researched the armies tactics and strengths and weaknesses, then I start buying models to fit into that list.

I also write armies from highest to lowest points. So write a 2500, then 2000, 1500, 1000, 750, 500. This allows me to make sure that all models in lower points armies are also in the higher points lists. This prevents buying models that won't be needed in certain games.

If you want to play with what you own, by all means do so. If you are unsure about running a certain unit, proxy it in a few games to test it out before buying it.

as far as your wizard situation i would have to agree make him a level 4, drop the griffon on your lord and turn your mounted noble into the same thing but a prince maybe... that way you should be able to even out the points a little bit n you wont have to buy any new models.

the biggest problem wiht a griffon is should you run into anything with a few attacks and a little bit of strength there is a VERY good chance that 200 point no armour save monster is going right into the dirt, if your in a challenge with an enemy character they are going to butcher that pidgeon and steal all kinds of combat rez from you

just a few thoughts! as for your future purchases for your army, consider more swordmasters, or phoenixgaurd or white lions. i find those 3 are the main focus of special units in the army, dragon princes are awesome however they come second IMHO to the above, simply because you have more consistancy with the footmen.

The reason for the griffon rider is more for monsters, warmachines and the like, the real challenge character is the mounted nobel. I understand that a tooled lord would wreck my pigeon but that's why I avoid the tooled lord!

Also I am getting another 20 Swordmasters but that's after the tournament! I love the other options but WL are to expensive $ wise and I hate the new pheonix guard models (old ones looked worlds better)

I agree completely about the new PG. As soon as I saw pics of them I bought 30 of the 6th edition ones off bartertown. Got a good deal on them too. Only thing is it's a pain in the ass to pin 60 hands and arms together.

PLayed my first practice game tonight and I almost pulled a win (barely a VP draw). I found the synergy between The Whithering and a ton of S3-4 shooting is amazing, having dropped 20 plauge monks in a turn of concentrated shooting. The calv units managed to harras, weaken then crush a flanking glass hammer. The seaguard killed alot with Okams before a miscast from my mage killed all of them (15 hits, 15 wounds). Terror causing SM have once again proved to me their worth, chewing through a large unit of clanrats before being burned/shocked to death. The Griffon Prince I got a bit distracted with after going cannon hunting I thought him a monster hunter, I was proved wrong and my prince barely escaped with his and his mounts lives. Over all an enjoyable game though I may try and add a hitty mage in (Heavens/Fire) and drop the dart noble.

thats sounds like you had a really good first game! its also good to hear your not writing off your high elf core, they may be over priced but they are still infantry and whether we like it or not they are still our cheapest infantry lol.

your withering/shooty combo definately sounds like a good one as well with spearmen or seagaurd units just in CC even too!.

something to consider, if your dropping your dart noble maybe run either a High mage or a metal one (personally i would go metal) and you can get some protection, run him with a silver wand and that way with metal you can either increase your armour saves (particularily good with SM or WL giving them a 3+ save or the 5++ save from shield of saphery in high magic.

just somthing to play around with, my first 5 games i used just about every lore in the book just to play out how they felt and what ones seemed to work best for my squishy pink skins lol


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Cheers

Mike


Automatically Appended Next Post:
one other thing i actually didnt notcie at first, but why the 2 princes?? i assume you want the one on foot to add a little kick into one of your units, but once the models are available for you maybe consider using his points to simply add numbers to some of your core or to your sword masters.

also just a random food for thought, if you know that you are going against either chaos or dwarvs, somthing i have found to work wonders on both of those armies is sticking a razor standard on your swordmasters, the -3 instead of 2 to armour realy lays down the hurt, naturally you can get that with WL as well but you wont get near as many attacks.

The reason for two princes is that once the grifon goes away (my general flys around) the other prince gives a leadership boost (and a mind razor boost) to the seaguard. Also with three characters in that one unit he helps move the mage to the second rank.

For my next Lvl 2 (who I am thinking scroll or jewel) I am considering Fire or Heavens to just add to my shooting, as the Whithering is my only spell I cast constantly and it leaves me with alot of unused dice.

I still maintain that sea guard are overcosted and you'd be better off using them as regular spearmen. That's just me. Glad to see you had fun with your game.

seaguard are one the biggest point sinks in warhammer fantasy.

The reason for the seaguard is because due to the models I have access to I can not reach my 25% if I just run spearmen (also they add to my shooting). One problem I have run into as i played my second game today (against a goblin force) is that when the hordes come at me I really struggle to deal with that many units, as I can remove one or two units and thin the others but the amount of bodies is really hurting me. My new lvl 2 was running death and I found it very underwhelming when combined with shadow (Buja + Sig). But I really need my Lvl2 dealing damage with his magic so I am thinking about fire. Any advice on a good lore for a more offensive based HE mage?

High Magic can be pretty good for thinning hordes if you use Flames; the enemy magic phase consists of throwing precious Power Dice at dispelling it or letting it rage unchecked, and with most hordes being T3 or less and having little in the way of armour, a S3 hit per model to start with is nothing to turn your nose up at.

Against a 40-strong Khornate Marauder Horde, you're looking at an average of 20 wounds from your first Flames, and since they don't wear armour, a single Flames cast has halved the strength of that Horde, factor in Curse of Arrow Attraction too, and your Archers/Seaguard + Flames can have that horde down quickly.

You can just as easily apply this to Goblins (you should easily kill enough to force an early panic check) or other hordes; any armour will likely only be a 6+, a 5+ at best, so won't stop the casuatlies piling up.

If you have any power dice spare at the end, you can always Drain Magic to make it a bit harder on his casting.

Wow I just looked over the HE lore again and a Lvl 2 with silver wand is going to go into this list. The way I'm looking at it if I throw the whithering and then flames on a unit the enemys magic phase will be dealing with those two spells or trying to cast all the while I am crushing toughness 1-2 hordes with S3-4 hits on every model. And curse of arrow and vuals are just added bonuses


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ralin Givens wrote:

Prince 430
General
Griffon
HA + Shield
Vambraces of Defense
Dragon Helm
Lance

Prince 192
Iron Curse
Glittering Scales
GW

Mage 175
Lvl 2
Shadow
Seerstaff
Tali Pro

Noble 168
Armour of Caledor
Guardian Pheonix
GW
BSB

Mage 145
Lvl 2
High Lore
Silver wand

20 Archers 255
LA
Full Com

25 Sea Guard 375
Shields
Full Com
Banner of Arc Pro

10 Swordmasters 255
Full Com
Banner of Sorcery
Terrifying mask of EEEE

5 Silver Helms 155
Full Com
Shields

5 Reavers 133
Full Com
Bows

Bolt Thrower 100

Bolt Thrower 100

Grand Total 2483

Ok here is the new and improved list

very nice, the High magic should work well for you if you dont get one of the spells you want just trade it for shield and your good to go anyways lol.

also i am not sure if you have the models available or not or if your willing to grab some, but personally id drop the reavers for more swordmasters, run them 6-7 wide throw a character in the unit and if you can get 7 wide 3 deep you can really lay the hurt on most things!

i generally jsut use wahtever cav i am running to take out warmachines any way they do it really quick and when your done you free reform to face the ass end of a unit right.

I played a ame against Ogre Kingdoms and then another game against a Goblin Horde army and both games I was crushed (due mainly to me forgetting to challenge and the lack of focus firing.) But I have been really toying with swapping High Lore for Lore of Beasts on my silverwand mage. I will be trying my first game with this change very soon but was wondering what peoples favorite Transformation beast is (I am leaning towards the Chimera... just have to find a decent model for it)

This list is garbage for competive play.

1. Why sink so many points in heroes? Other races can out muscle HE when it comes to choppy heroes so why even bother?

2. A lord on a big critter is dead plain and simple in tourny setting on the first turn no exceptions and even if your really want to keep the lord on griffon why field a griffon for a few points more your in dragon territory?

3.Your special choices are literlly the worst choices in the book..For competive play you need big blocks of elite infantry PG, WLs and SMs not pissy useless little cavalry units that no longer have uses in 8th..

4. Bolt throwers are grossly overcosted canons for dwarves etcf are cheaper and sure as hell alot more effectrive.

5. A level 4 mage at this points level is a must no if buts or maybes.

6. your core choices are horrible LSG are hugely overpriced remember for 2 points more you could have bought an elite infantry model.

Archers are mostly useless against chaos,dwarves etc they wont kill a thing and against horde armies they might kill 3 or 4 a turn but that still leaves a unit with 95 rats (in one unit) left to eat you.

7. You have full command on alot of units that dont need it.

8. Really this is possible the worst HE list I have ever seen sorry but its true its that bad.

You missed '8.'...

I love when people dont read my posts just look at my list....

Ralin Givens wrote:I love when people dont read my posts just look at my list....

I did read your whole post but you cant polish a turd and no amount of tweaking is going to make this list work (even in casual play) It looks like your trying to go to a tourny without having the models to make an army at this point level so you are filling the list with bloat just to make points.

If you dead set on keeping this list and can only buy one more box before you go I recommend a great eagle for 50pts you cant beat it value wise for hunting warmachines etc. But seeing as your army seems to be to two sets of IoB with a box of silver helms thrown in may i ask why you even posted on suggestions in the first place?

So I have to agree, this list is just pretty bad... You have a lot of upgrades and characters on not that many models. I know you about out of models, do you have anything left?

The only suggestion I can give is to drop a lot of your upgrade and make your glimmering scale prince better. 4+ ward talisman, or the 4+ ward heavy armor are probably better bets. Can also give him Radiant Gem and choose death. With ld 10 he has a good shot of knocking off some wounds off most things. There are a lot of things that can be dropped especially some of the command or mask of EEE etc. Mask of EEE is fine (personal preference I guess, I don't like it but thats just me) but it's useless on a 10 man squad that will be shot to death because they have 105 points of upgrades on a 150 base point squad.

But really my suggestion would be to try and play 2000 till you get the models.

Ah you see but I have polished this turd fairly well (4 wins and 3 losses and 2 draws, the wins being against a fairly competitive Skaven list and a dead 'ard WoC list). Though I do plan on picking up a eagle before the tournament. Also I have posted and gotten suggestions that have improved this list a ton since its first draft, so if your posting just to bag on it dont post at all.

Also I always forget about Radiant Gem Tiek, thank you I may have to try that out and see how it goes.

Ralin Givens wrote:Ah you see but I have polished this turd fairly well (4 wins and 3 losses and 2 draws, the wins being against a fairly competitive Skaven list and a dead 'ard WoC list). Though I do plan on picking up a eagle before the tournament. Also I have posted and gotten suggestions that have improved this list a ton since its first draft, so if your posting just to bag on it dont post at all.

Also I always forget about Radiant Gem Tiek, thank you I may have to try that out and see how it goes.

Really i would love to see what was in the list that you beat....here is a ruff low down of my competive list 40 PGs, 40 WLs with banner of sorcery all my core in one big block of spearmen and 4 eagles I would love to see how you go getting points out of my list....I honestly think I could just deploy and sit there and you would not be able to get any points outta my army except maybe the eagles (and only then if I cant hide em).

I wanst trying to be offensive I was just trying to be realistic If your broke/new to the hobby and dont have many models atleast have the common sense to run teclis...

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/381379.page There is a list about half way down the page that I managed to crush but that normally has a great record in my gaming group. (Its one of my babies that I have been working on for a long time).

And the only reason I am taking the Elves is because they are my only painted army and I really dont feel like putting the brush to 200+ models and get it done before the 18th...so its the Elves, but your right my list would struggle against yours as WL and PG are very hard against shooting. Also I would rather run Shadow Warriors than Teclis... and I know how much the helms suck just the TO wont allow them as proxys for dragon princes

Ok lets me get this straight you would prefer to run one of the most overpriced and useless units in the game full stop over the best casting hero in the game? /facepalm

Its not just the silver helms that suck nearly every choice in your list is bad..I relise that you dont have many options and thats cool we have all been there but dont post that abortion of a list on dakka ask for help and get all butthurt when folks explain to you that your list is awful.

You will be seeing netlist at a tournament and you will get crushed. If the tournament only has a paint score I would field a grey army in prefence to an all painted one that dosent preform.

If it requires 3 colors min just prime your other army and paint 2 other colors on the models. Folk will be lining up at the tournament to play you so they can get an easy win and full batlle points.