Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I have noticed something about 40k, that all the space marines are Caucasian. I would be able to overlook this, only the only space marines of non-white origin, the salamanders, are classed as mutated. I want a discussion, not someone trying to rationalize it, and say racism is non existent. The fact that the greatest heroes of humanity are white, and the only black ones are mutated makes me feel there is some sort of institutional racism or racial preference.

It's a matter of people painting things...
You can paint them any damn colour you want.

The Salamanders aren't black as in darker skin. Their skin is literally black. It is a mutation with their gene-seed. They may very well have darker skin before they are recruited but once they get all marined up their skin goes black.

There are likely many marines who have darker skin but the thing is a lot of marines have helmets and when you get down to it darker skin is harder to paint... at least i think it is.

I've painted black, white, and in-between marines. Most of mine wear helmets, though. So, 40% of my marines could be black and I wound't know it.

Paint your damn minis however you want!

The Crimson fists have a spanish or latin background if you read through their notable names. ( source )

Chapter Master Alexis Polux - The Crimson Fists First Chapter Master (dec.)
Chapter Master Algernon Traegus - 16th Chapter Master (dec.)9
Chapter Master Klede Sargo - 17th Chapter Master (dec.)9
Chapter Master Kardova - Chapter Master during The Crusade of Righteous Liberation (dec.)
Chapter Master Pedro Kantor - Lord Hellblade, current Crimson Fists Chapter Master (M41), Captain of Crusade Company, 29th Chapter Master1,9
Captain Drigo Alvez - Captain of the 2nd, Master of the Shield, Captain in charge of defence of New Rynn City, overwhelmed and killed by Orks (dec.)9
Captain Ashor Drakken - Captain of the 3rd, Master of the Line, killed in the assault on Krugerport (dec.)9
Captain Alessio Cortez - Master of the Charge9, Nigh-invulnerable Captain of the 4th Company (pres dec.)
Captain Selig Torres - Captain of the 5th9
Captain Olbyn Kadena - Captain of the 6th, Master of the Watch9
Captain Caldimus Ortiz - Captain of the 7th, Master of the Gates (.dec)9
Captain Matteo Morrelis - Captain of the 8th, Master of Blades9
Captain Raphael Acastus - Captain of the 9th, Master of Siege9
Captain Ishmael Icario - Captain of the 10th, Master of Shadows9
Veteran Sergeant Grevius - Member of a Deathwatch Kill-team and was killed by a Tyranid Lictor on Herodian IV7
Brother Toma of the Fifth Company, Crimson Fists8
Forgemaster Javier Adon - Master of the Technicarum (dec.)9
High Chaplain Marqol Tomasi (dec.) 9
Chaplain Argo - Chaplain of the 5th Company
Chief Librarian Eustace Mendoza - Master of the Librarius (dec.) 9

purplefood wrote:It's a matter of people painting things...
You can paint them any damn colour you want.

The Salamanders aren't black as in darker skin. Their skin is literally black. It is a mutation with their gene-seed. They may very well have darker skin before they are recruited but once they get all marined up their skin goes black.

There are likely many marines who have darker skin but the thing is a lot of marines have helmets and when you get down to it darker skin is harder to paint... at least i think it is.

You try living on a world of lava and not having a tan.

-J.

I would paint my space marines any, as you put it, damn color I like (hint of irritation or anger). But the problem I have is, Space marines are advertised as white, yes, I have no problem with this. But, the problem I have is that the salamanders, who were originally dark skinned, are now pitch black with red eyes. This seems a tad racist to me, or at the very least, ironic. Red eyes have always been used to show evil, the fact that they go from dark skinned to demonic looking, is suspicious, at the least.

Imagine727 wrote:I would paint my space marines any, as you put it, damn color I like (hint of irritation or anger). But the problem I have is, Space marines are advertised as white, yes, I have no problem with this. But, the problem I have is that the salamanders, who were originally dark skinned, are now pitch black with red eyes. This seems a tad racist to me, or at the very least, ironic. Red eyes have always been used to show evil, the fact that they go from dark skinned to demonic looking, is suspicious, at the least.

Salamanders are the nicest SM chapter around...
I could also go into a rant about SM in general right now but i won't...
Next time you see a guy with black skin (I mean atually black not just dark) and red eyes you try telling me you aren't a little bit freaked out.

Most futureristic sci-fi universes have little or no black people in them.

Ah, yes, this thread. It's a popular and a contentious issue. Simply put: it's because GW didn't think of it, then when they did, they decided to un-think of it.

I remember back in my Warseer days this topic would get nasty real fast. I shall be interested to see how Dakka handles it.

htj wrote:Ah, yes, this thread. It's a popular and a contentious issue. Simply put: it's because GW didn't think of it, then when they did, they decided to un-think of it.

I remember back in my Warseer days this topic would get nasty real fast. I shall be interested to see how Dakka handles it.

This thread will probably die. It has been answered correctly fairly quickly.

purplefood wrote:

htj wrote:Ah, yes, this thread. It's a popular and a contentious issue. Simply put: it's because GW didn't think of it, then when they did, they decided to un-think of it.

I remember back in my Warseer days this topic would get nasty real fast. I shall be interested to see how Dakka handles it.

This thread will probably die. It has been answered correctly fairly quickly.

That will be better than the 20 page descent into rampant hostility and barely concealed racism I was used to on Warseer.

The fact that they would freak me out doesn't answer my question. I assume your are Caucasian, purplefood, so you may not understand the concept of racism from a receiving end. But what I find annoying, I will say AGAIN, is that the ONLY dark skinned chapter ended up looking like demons, do you not find this at least a little racist or prejudice? If not... then you are but ANOTHER rationalizing fool, who will not accept the fact that racism is present everywhere.

Imagine727 wrote:I have noticed something about 40k, that all the space marines are Caucasian. I would be able to overlook this, only the only space marines of non-white origin, the salamanders, are classed as mutated.

...Except the Salamanders, as mentioned, are Caucasian but with a gene-seed defect that makes their skin unnaturally black.
By the same coin, the Raven Guard are Caucasian by and large but with a gene-seed defect that makes their skin an almost pearly white with 'coal black eyes and jet black hair'.

I want a discussion, not someone trying to rationalize it, and say racism is non existent.

The fact that the greatest heroes of humanity are white, and the only black ones are mutated makes me feel there is some sort of institutional racism or racial preference.

Imagine727 wrote:The fact that they would freak me out doesn't answer my question. I assume your are Caucasian, purplefood, so you may not understand the concept of racism from a receiving end. But what I find annoying, I will say AGAIN, is that the ONLY dark skinned chapter ended up looking like demons, do you not find this at least a little racist or prejudice? If not... then you are but ANOTHER rationalizing fool, who will not accept the fact that racism is present everywhere.

Maybe if they acted like demons, but they are the nicest most human chapter around. Judging them by appearance and not their personality would be racist

your argument is very good. It seems that the information I have on salamanders is incorrect... IF the information that your giving me is correct... Hmmmmm

Imagine727 wrote:The fact that they would freak me out doesn't answer my question. I assume your are Caucasian, purplefood, so you may not understand the concept of racism from a receiving end. But what I find annoying, I will say AGAIN, is that the ONLY dark skinned chapter ended up looking like demons, do you not find this at least a little racist or prejudice? If not... then you are but ANOTHER rationalizing fool, who will not accept the fact that racism is present everywhere.

And I will say AGAIN that the ONLY dark skinned Chapter look like demons because of a freakish mutation that was not expected.

The general idea put forth, any time this argument is brought forward, is that at this point in time the population has become intermingled to such an extent that genetics has taken hold and the recessive traits have become rarities.

Or it's, again, a case of white people designing a game and not knowing how best to handle introducing other ethnicities without making the PC brigade cry foul on everything.

Imagine727 wrote:The fact that they would freak me out doesn't answer my question. I assume your are Caucasian, purplefood, so you may not understand the concept of racism from a receiving end. But what I find annoying, I will say AGAIN, is that the ONLY dark skinned chapter ended up looking like demons, do you not find this at least a little racist or prejudice? If not... then you are but ANOTHER rationalizing fool, who will not accept the fact that racism is present everywhere.

You don't have to not be white to find it annoying. I was pretty hacked off by it myself, and I'm white as a milk-bottle. Leave off the personal attacks, though, they're uncalled for.

Is it racism that motivated the change? Probably. Probably one of those unconcious fear of a black planet kind of racisms. But you've got to remember that GW is staffed almost entirely by nerdy white guys. For the most part, they probably didn't even realise what they were doing. It's not worth getting angry about, it's just sad.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kanluwen wrote:Or it's, again, a case of white people designing a game and not knowing how best to handle introducing other ethnicities without making the PC brigade cry foul on everything.

Ah, no, here it is. Kanluwen's right.

true, I will now calm down....

How some one paints their minis, be they black, white or what have you isn't really what I gather the OP is on about.
...And he does have a valid point in that the vast majority of images of SM do indeed depict them as Caucasian.

The vast majority of images of SM depict them as small-headed, horse-faced abhumans who happen to be white or in some cases vaguely Asian in appearance.

EDIT: Never mind. Everyone go paint their space men and be happy.

Kanluwen wrote:The vast majority of images of SM depict them as small-headed, horse-faced abhumans who happen to be white or in some cases vaguely Asian in appearance.

However poorly proportioned the drawings/images are notwithstanding, you have to admit that overall most depict white guys in power armor.

I have already said I have calmed down, so stop telling me to...

FITZZ wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:The vast majority of images of SM depict them as small-headed, horse-faced abhumans who happen to be white or in some cases vaguely Asian in appearance.

However poorly proportioned the drawings/images are notwithstanding, you have to admit that overall most depict white guys in power armor.

And you have to admit the majority of the world's population falls under what many would consider "white guys".

I'm sure there's planets out there filled with black people.
Vitria, home of the famous Vitrian Dragoons that Dan Abnett introduced, is mentioned as being a planet filled with black people.
The Glavians, who again Dan Abnett introduced, are supposed to be all-black and a planet stuffed to the brim with superbly skilled engineers, pilots, and scientists.

What gets shown in images isn't the end of the story.

yes, but it is the part of the story that is most widely acknowledged

I didn't get Vitrian Dragoons as being black, thought they were more middle eastern.

The Space Marines should be Asian, since almost all Asian traits are genetically dominant.

Kanluwen wrote:

FITZZ wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:The vast majority of images of SM depict them as small-headed, horse-faced abhumans who happen to be white or in some cases vaguely Asian in appearance.

However poorly proportioned the drawings/images are notwithstanding, you have to admit that overall most depict white guys in power armor.

And you have to admit the majority of the world's population falls under what many would consider "white guys".

I'm sure there's planets out there filled with black people.
Vitria, home of the famous Vitrian Dragoons that Dan Abnett introduced, is mentioned as being a planet filled with black people.
The Glavians, who again Dan Abnett introduced, are supposed to be all-black and a planet stuffed to the brim with superbly skilled engineers, pilots, and scientists.

What gets shown in images isn't the end of the story.

Of course it isn't...
Just saying that perhaps a broader spectrum should be depicted in imagery..visual imagery that is.

Imagine727 wrote:The fact that they would freak me out doesn't answer my question. I assume your are Caucasian, purplefood, so you may not understand the concept of racism from a receiving end. But what I find annoying, I will say AGAIN, is that the ONLY dark skinned chapter ended up looking like demons, do you not find this at least a little racist or prejudice? If not... then you are but ANOTHER rationalizing fool, who will not accept the fact that racism is present everywhere.

I understand racism from a recieving end. I have been discriminated against before. It isn't fun.
My point is that the description of them being 'daemonic' is from frightened and terrified mortals.
They aren't the only dark skinned chapter. There are likely more, in fact any SM chapter could have dark skinned marines. The reason they don't is much like why men use he as a default rather than she, the artist in question is white. I don't think it is racially motivated just unthinking.

True, but oversight can sometimes have terrible and lasting consequences.

Imagine727 wrote:True, but oversight can sometimes have terrible and lasting consequences.

It can yeah but in this case it don't think it will have a massive effect on society at large.