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Not necessarily one led by chaos, but one to overthrow the corrupt heads of the Imperium. I don't know how nobody cares that the Emperors teachings have been ignored so long.

First do you think it could happen? Some might say it would not be possible because they are pressed from all sides, but i say what better time for a coup de'ta when they cannot bring all their forces to bear.

Second do you think it would help the Imperium? Right now they are stagnating and have deviated from their original goals, maybe they need to return to the old ways with new leaders.

Third if it did who would you throw on each side?

Who are these corrupt leaders you speak of?

I've heard it said of some High Lords before, maybe not necessarily corrupt, but it's no question they've deviated from the Emperors teachings

That's debatable. The most obvious deviation is the religous one but it is not woeful, malevolent disregard for The Emperor's decrees but more of a misunderstanding. And a massive rebellion against the church is going to come from whom? Not the Imperium's loyal folk for sure. It would have to come from a Chaos cult. Do you see the Irony?

KamikazeCanuck wrote:That's debatable. The most obvious deviation is the religous one but it is not woeful, malevolent disregard for The Emperor's decrees but more of a misunderstanding. And a massive rebellion against the church is going to come from whom? Not the Imperium's loyal folk for sure. It would have to come from a Chaos cult. Do you see the Irony?

It being debatable is a big point in the thread . I could see it coming from the Marines, something causing them to come to a similar realization to the Soul Drinkers. They may be able to gather some support, but with the masses being ignorantly loyal as you said, not alot. The force necessarily wouldn't be facing the entire might of the Imperium though. The entire thing would likely hinge on convincing the Mechanicus, because they don't have a reason to go against the Imperum nor one to stay for it.

A point for it being helpful , on a seperate note, would be technology. The Emperor preached for technology over religion so returning to his beliefs could bring more innovation.

Any rebellion would need to start like Sebastian Thor's did...
Marines and Mechaniucs can only support it once it gets big enough and it's obvious that the current leaders are corrupt. Otherwise they cannot do it for their own sake, if the rebellion fails for some reason... well both the Astartes and the Mechanicus would be up a certain creek without a paddle.
The other organisations...
Custodes are a bit of a wild card.
Arbites would be duty bound to supress rebellions and riots but they could feasibly turn to join a rebellion.
Not sure on the others...

Nicholas wrote:Not necessarily one led by chaos, but one to overthrow the corrupt heads of the Imperium. I don't know how nobody cares that the Emperors teachings have been ignored so long.

First do you think it could happen? Some might say it would not be possible because they are pressed from all sides, but i say what better time for a coup de'ta when they cannot bring all their forces to bear.

Second do you think it would help the Imperium? Right now they are stagnating and have deviated from their original goals, maybe they need to return to the old ways with new leaders.

Third if it did who would you throw on each side?

Already happened (or at least something very similar), the oft-overlooked Age of Apostasy around M36.

As for nobody caring about the Emperors teachings being ignored... very few would realize this is the case, as most imperial citizens are effectively brainwashed into believing that virtually everything is done in accordance with His word.

Almost no one alive in the Imperium today remembers what the Emperor was really like. In fact, you could probably count the number of people who were alive in the days of the Emperor's mortal life on one hand. The passage of time has caused what fragmentary memories remain to pass into myth and legend, and the wide-spread destruction caused by the Heresy resulted in the loss of so many records that this knowledge is utterly unrecoverable.

Not only would such a revolt require someone to actually know what the hell the Emperor was about when he was alive, this person would need to convince a whole fethload of other people that what the Imperium has become is counter to this plan... which means going up against a very, very large contingent of the Inquisition, as well as the plurality of the population in general, from all backgrounds and callings.

chaos0xomega wrote:Already happened (or at least something very similar), the oft-overlooked Age of Apostasy around M36.

And that was basically religion vs religion, ended only when the Big E said "that guy is right".

(kinda interesting that he didn't clear up the entire mess right there - either he must be fine with it, however reluctantly, or the whole act was staged by the Custodes)

the only person loyal to the Emperor and was alive during and prior to the heresy and who is still alive is Bjorn Fellhanded, and possably a few BA furiosos. and they are all in Dreadnoughts.

Why not the Lion? He wakes up from his coma, sees the state of the IoM. Using his tactical brilliance he stages a coup.

Psienesis wrote: In fact, you could probably count the number of people who were alive in the days of the Emperor's mortal life on one hand.

Only if that hand had billions of fingers. But they aren't human.

Nicholas wrote:Not necessarily one led by chaos, but one to overthrow the corrupt heads of the Imperium. I don't know how nobody cares that the Emperors teachings have been ignored so long.

First do you think it could happen? Some might say it would not be possible because they are pressed from all sides, but i say what better time for a coup de'ta when they cannot bring all their forces to bear.

Second do you think it would help the Imperium? Right now they are stagnating and have deviated from their original goals, maybe they need to return to the old ways with new leaders.

Third if it did who would you throw on each side?

You know all those stories you read about the chaos deamon prince with drooling acid maw and horns calling for the entire galaxy to be burned. The all started out like you, saying stuff like that above. The road to Chaos is paved with good intentions.

"To begin reform is to begin Revolution"

Only if that hand had billions of fingers. But they aren't human.

The Traitors don't count because, well, they're Traitors.
The Xenos don't count because, well, they're Xenos.
The Daemons don't count because, well, they are lies given form.

What does count are those few surviving Space Marines (like Bjorn) and few select Arch-Magi of the Adeptus Mechanicus who were there, who remembered, and who had enough first-hand experience being around the Emperor to understand what his goals were, what his aims were, and how he intended things to work.

To be quite frank, the Ad Mech doesn't care about the Emperor's vision and how the Imperium changed into the religious organization it is now.

they actually prefer the current system as the Emperor actualy repressed their worship of the Omnissiah.

now that religion is encouraged they have aquired tolerence themselves by saying the Omnissiah is simply their version of the God Emperor.

Grey Templar wrote:the only person loyal to the Emperor and was alive during and prior to the heresy and who is still alive is Bjorn Fellhanded, and possably a few BA furiosos. and they are all in Dreadnoughts.

:cough:Custodes:cough:

Constantin Valdor at the very least was still alive during the Age of Apostasy, I would imagine that a large part of the other roughly 1000 or so custodes are still kicking around to, as there seems to be no method by which new Custodes are made or recruited.

Custodes, duh.


Still, they are just his bodyguards right now. and even then, they can see the wisdom in the current state of events.

making the Emperor a god was the only way to keep the Imperium together.

IRT Custodes... we just don't know. They might be original, they might not be. We're just not given the information in the game.

They're also out of the discussion because all they do is maintain the Golden Throne and defend Terra... specifically, the Golden Throne. They don't seem to care what goes on in the Imperium at large.

Would be an interesting turn. I can see the next edition/expansion/whatctamahosnet dividing the Imperium in civil war over a return to the old Imperium with the other faction to stay as is. Would be a very good setting for some inter-Imperium combat.

But can guarantee the end result is a crushed revolution, executed traitors and the new knowledge that the grimdar4k dial does indeed go to eleven. Take the dystopia and reference to religious control on a mass scale and you lose some of the grimdark setting.

Varrick wrote: Would be an interesting turn. I can see the next edition/expansion/whatctamahosnet dividing the Imperium in civil war over a return to the old Imperium with the other faction to stay as is. Would be a very good setting for some inter-Imperium combat.

But can guarantee the end result is a crushed revolution, executed traitors and the new knowledge that the grimdar4k dial does indeed go to eleven. Take the dystopia and reference to religious control on a mass scale and you lose some of the grimdark setting.

Don't hold your breath. GW is not moving the story forward.

chaos0xomega wrote:

Varrick wrote: Would be an interesting turn. I can see the next edition/expansion/whatctamahosnet dividing the Imperium in civil war over a return to the old Imperium with the other faction to stay as is. Would be a very good setting for some inter-Imperium combat.

But can guarantee the end result is a crushed revolution, executed traitors and the new knowledge that the grimdar4k dial does indeed go to eleven. Take the dystopia and reference to religious control on a mass scale and you lose some of the grimdark setting.

Don't hold your breath. GW is not moving the story forward.

That's what i said. They would make it LOOK like the story went forward but we end up back at square one with a dystopian Imperium going even more George Orwell on us.

Nicholas wrote:I've heard it said of some High Lords before, maybe not necessarily corrupt, but it's no question they've deviated from the Emperors teachings

They are watched by 3 organisations:

-Emperor's Guard.
-Inquisition.
-Assassins.

2 of them already got picked on the beginning of 41'st millennial... The rest are not so tough...
And you really think that Mars or Astartes or Sisters will stand aside and let another Horus or Vandire happened?

I don't know about a second heresy but i've alway believe that the imperium would continue to get pushed back to a point where its overall control of the region is smaller and therefore easier and faster to manage. Regrouping and reorganizing the imperium would be re-born in the fires like the Pheonix and set out on many more great crusades to conquer what they once controlled.

Psienesis wrote:Almost no one alive in the Imperium today remembers what the Emperor was really like. In fact, you could probably count the number of people who were alive in the days of the Emperor's mortal life on one hand. The passage of time has caused what fragmentary memories remain to pass into myth and legend, and the wide-spread destruction caused by the Heresy resulted in the loss of so many records that this knowledge is utterly unrecoverable.

Not only would such a revolt require someone to actually know what the hell the Emperor was about when he was alive, this person would need to convince a whole fethload of other people that what the Imperium has become is counter to this plan... which means going up against a very, very large contingent of the Inquisition, as well as the plurality of the population in general, from all backgrounds and callings.

"Although the reverence Space Marines have for the Emperor borders on actual worship, he is supposedly not seen as an actual god by some, but as a brilliant and inspirational man. As in all things, this view of the Emperor's divine status or lack thereof varies from Chapter to Chapter."

I found this quote on Lexicanum, so atleast half if not more of the marine chapter still know what the Emperors visions of humanity were.

All it needs is the primarchs to return!

"Although the reverence Space Marines have for the Emperor borders on actual worship, he is supposedly not seen as an actual god by some, but as a brilliant and inspirational man. As in all things, this view of the Emperor's divine status or lack thereof varies from Chapter to Chapter."

I found this quote on Lexicanum, so atleast half if not more of the marine chapter still know what the Emperors visions of humanity were.

Not exactly...

I mean, let's look at the Space Wolves. They revere the Emperor because he was able to beat Russ in combat. Full stop, end of story.

They could give a feth less if the Emperor is/was divine or not, it doesn't matter. He was a better fighter than Russ, so that makes him worthy of honor and respect.

This does not mean that the Space Wolves have any idea what the Emperor's plans were for the Imperium, had the Heresy not happened. They don't care if he is alive and fighting in the Warp or if he's died and gone to his warrior's great sleep... doesn't matter to them. His motivations, beliefs, plans and projects are totally irrelevant to them outside of the "he beat Russ, so he's cool" concept.

... and this from a Chapter with a still-living Dreadnought who *was* at the Emperor's side!

Wolves I would say would be on the border, as they are the Emperors executioners for astartes, but their loyalty is to Emperor not the Highlords. Not saying they would start it because they were never the leading types, as you said they don't give a feth. They could be persuaded though.

Nicholas wrote:I've heard it said of some High Lords before, maybe not necessarily corrupt, but it's no question they've deviated from the Emperors teachings

I don't know, the Emperor was a "my way or die" tyrant as well, so it could be argued they are fulfilling his dream just fine. The bureaucracy began to take form during his reign. Necessity prompted a lot of the post-Heresy changes to emphasize secrecy. Then the Ecclesiarchy was in charge for a while, and we all know what a bunch of fun guys they are. Of course, the dangers they preach against are REAL, so again necessity overrides the nebulous concept of freedom.

Phht, the Wolves couldn't even be bothered to come out of their fortress when Bucharis had already attacked them.

If there's ever a new revolt, it would likely come into existence just like the last Age of Apostasy, with the AdMech and various Marine Chapters sloooowly aligning themselves into a loose confederation as they are judging over the question of whether to assist the High Lords of the Imperium, or the ordinary human rebels led by some bloke from a random planet.

History does like to repeat itself.

Nicholas wrote:Wolves I would say would be on the border, as they are the Emperors executioners for astartes, but their loyalty is to Emperor not the Highlords. Not saying they would start it because they were never the leading types, as you said they don't give a feth. They could be persuaded though.

The executioner bit is very questionable, since we only get that information from a SW. They like to bitch and moan about getting all the dirty jobs, but several Legions got undesirable assignments. I think the most difficult act of persuasion would be not to convince the Wolves to lead, but for anyone to follow.

If anyone can gather enough support to overthrow the High Lords, it would be the Ultras (since they would be in essence able to command the loyalties of half of the Space Marine chapters). But seeing as their Primarch started the institution, that's very unlikely.

And hey, maybe this is what the Alpha Legion is doing, trying to undermine and eventually destroy the current power structure of the Imperium.