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Ogryns feel very overpriced for what they do. I feel like they have potential to exist in an Imperial Guard Army, but for what initially looks like a tough, CC-centric unit seems to fail to deliver due to poor Initiative, Leadership, and armor save.

So what could we do to make them actually worth playing in a battle? Would merely dropping the points be enough? By how much?

ive heard that throwing them in a chimmy and giving them yarrick is a really nasty thing to do to people you dont like

Ogryns aren't broken...

king-newmic wrote:Ogryns aren't broken...

Well for something that costs as much as an Assault Terminator, they don't really live up to their points cost.

Seems like a lot of the negative opinions of ogryns comes from people who look at the codex entry/points cost and think "40 points a model? No way is that stat line worth it". I know I was certainly in that camp until I grabbed some of my whfb ogres and gave them a few test runs, they now have guns, armor, and aquilas. I was pleasantly surprised by how effective they were, as I think many people who give them a shot are (this is partially the product of low initial expectations).

The fact that they need some sort of leadership bubble to be reliable is a bit of a bummer, but it does remain a fun unit to add flavor, and a different take on any guard list.

I find they really shine in bigger battles where the basic needs of the guard army are all taken care of.

@Valkeryie: Haha! exactly the response i was looking for, thats why i put "...". theyre not broken...because we've already fixed them! and fixed them...and fixed them once again!

Several times in fact.
Over several years of threads to be exact.
Ogryns...we know what they lack!
(!)
Coughcough* ok back to the point:
We know EXACTLY how to fix Ogryns, either 25 pts per model or 35 pts per model and give them feel no pain or rending
(both are fluff worthy and have been suggested several times over)
unless sombody has some ground breaking evaluation on what else to give them...thats about it for fixing these guys. take it or leave it (or even better, add to it!)
so if you see another thread like this with nothing to add to the ogryns...roll up this thread and smack the person silly for not remebering history!

oh, speaking of which: *smacksmack* bad poster! i just made a thread like this and its not even a page worth of history back yet!

Ogryn's are fine if you have a couple things:

Chimera
Lord Commissar or Yarrick

If you add those things they become a force to be reconed with.

Other than that just watch out for St 10 and poisoned attacks. Oh and learn how to use them.

Sooo your paying let see, about 400 points for 1 unit of 10 str 5/T 5 dudes with 3 attacks and blah blah blah...add on ANOTHER 70 points for someone to babysit them the entire game just to make sure they dont die instantly from fleeing and ANOTHER 55 points to make sure HE doesnt die from anything with a str of 6... i.e a lucky genade launcher that cost 5pts, a multilaser etc. just so you can have a "shrr fine" unit.

hmm lets see: for a grand total of about 550ish points you get a unit thats only okay within 12" of attack range OR you can buy litterly anything else on the Elites list or any other part of the list for about a third that price and do two things at once! kill the squad of meaty meat that doesnt do much AND do somthing else that changes the game. Wow-e gee wilkers, they're not broken at all

Sorry for sounding harsh, but really...just really. look at the cold hard facts. They're beat in every way possible.

Also the amount of skill you need to get them to work just right for that one time fling, i can put in the same effort on ANY unit in the guard codex and get constant better results so its not a mater of skill. Ogryns just take the I.G cake in sucking.

The only "fixing" the Ogryns need at this point is the ability to take a Commissar (c'mon, they revere them and it would make sense) and also if their point cost was reduced by 5 points per model.

The least drastic would be allowing them to take a Commissar imho. That would totally fix any problems they have

Well, you could start by learning how to read and do math. Evidence suggests you have trouble with one or more of them.

DarknessEternal wrote:Well, you could start by learning how to read and do math. Evidence suggests you have trouble with one or more of them.

I don't know if you're talking to me, but regardless, what you said is pretty rude.

Commisars would be a nice addition, very fluffy also.

Commissars, 35 points a model. Bam.

Not every unit can be an assault terminator squad.

You get for 40 points 3 wounds, T5, S5, WS4, 3 base attacks, and Furious Charge. Plus they have an oversize Strength 5 shotgun that fires thrice.

Now Tyranid Warriors are a similar costing, similar stat-line unit. They have better ranged weapons and armor, Toughness and 5 points less.

But they both occupy a distinction of being simply not good enough for the point investment.

This comes from the comparative to Assault Terminators, who simply get it done better than both units.

But that is because Assault Terminators are dedicated CCers meant to kill the moment they charge.

Ogryns and Tyranids try to straddle the fence in terms of their abilities (good CC stat-lines with decent ranged weapons), but fail to measure up against units packing lots of power weapons, better armor, and instant kill abilities.

@warone: Well i must say, thats a good counter-post arguement and i applaud it but i must stick by my line of reasoning that they do need some points adjusment. Even a small points drop of 5 pts would help them out. Them being able to take commisars would help them out.

I think the tyranid unit in question us the tyranid hiveguard right?(im not sure, tell me if im wrong) Well ill be honest, theyre hard to take down but its not the hiveguard that people fear, its the fact that theyre literally linebacking a monster of CC. Sure they hurt a little when they get close but its mostly the fact that they effectively soak of wounds on the one creature you want to kill. Ogryns on the other hand, are their own unit. You can deal with them as you please and they represent a minimal amount of threat in a meta-game filled with cheap fodder with strong guns and lots of vehicles. its not hard to wound and kill 30 or less wounds of T5 armour 5(if you throw them behind infatry they raise the stake level but its hard to find a screen that will last long enough for the ogryans to cross the board) I dont want somthing that decimates anything in comes in close combat or a chimera-cheap unit, i just want a realistic price for a wound soaking meaty man(or a counter-charge man if you use them that way)

the way i see it, the fact that there a rare find even outside vehicle heavy armies means that something is amiss (stormtroopers fufill their roll with a decent price, psykers fufill their roll witha good price, ratalings are just awsome in terms of pricing; they just suck cause 5th ed sniping/pinning rules are bad) them and roughriders(punisher also if your using armour) get the short end of the stick because everything around them manages to do a better job at killing and soaking up damage. which is sad really.


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also @DarknessEternal: that was defintly not called for at all


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And another thing: 4th ed ogryns had cost 15 points less, and had +2 to morale,-1 toughness, a small nerf in terms of getting back onto chimeras, and the bone 'ead was allowed to take carpace, melatbombs, stormbolters, or plama pistols. Soo they actualy took a major nerfing in terms of power for somthing that never really got played heavily anyways. Go figure.

Echoing people of the pat, reduce cost a bit (5-10 points) and give bone heads the ability to take some extra equipment like power weapons

Ogryns work perfectly well if you are running a mixed list. If you have a big enough blob you now have two units that have a big "shoot" me sign on their chest. Along with the Vendetta's or Russes. It just adds to the whole concept of target saturation.

You would be surprised how many times I have ran my Ogryns in a Chimera with a LC and my opponents just did not know how to deal with them, along with my two vendetta's, my blob, my Executioner, my Manticore, my Hydra's. If they go after my shooting my Blob Squad and my Ogryns hit their lines, if they go after them the rest of my army shoots them to kingdom come.

Just because you dont like or dont think a unit is good, does not mean it isnt workable.

Grix wrote:Just because you dont like or dont think a unit is good, does not mean it isnt workable.

Yes they're workable (as shown by several BatReps) but that doesnt mean they cant be improved

Much like how we can improve Rough Riders and Storm Troopers who, just like ogryns, are workable in their current stat

Bone ead should get some wargear options. Something we can expect a bone ead to handle-

-replace rippa gun with a power fist or eviscerator
-demo charge! Ka-boom!
-comissar "buddy". If they fail a ld check, bone ead just takes a wound (comissar smacks ogryn on the nose and says, "NO!")

- squad has carapace (honestly I say drop their points by 10 and make carapace a 30 point upgrade for the squad. )

Jerjare you speak many fine words

Best part is Demo Charge is Assault . So you could hurl one and charge at whatever's left. It would help make the Ogryn a true 'shock' infantry unit, which is what I feel they are.

Although be wary if the wind is too strong

Yeah I think it would be great to make em' 30 points a piece, and let the bone 'ead have a power fist, and maybe slow and purposeful so they can add heavy weapons to thier aresnal as I've always seen them as the 'power' in a IG army. Imagine a squad advancing on ya with Plasma Cannons, and a Bone' ead with a power fist.

Also let them be transported by the Valkeryie/ Vendetta, or give them special deep strike rules, along the lines of they can't be destroyed by mishaps, they fall 'through' the trees, debris, and poor schmuck shooting at them. Hell I'd be tempted to paint a Blue Whale logo on a Vendetta just for this purpose...

SaP imo is terrible for assault units, they dont really need heavy weapons. Not sure why you'd need DS ogryns

Well, plasma cannons are supposed to be rare, and the fluff indicates Ogryn weapons have to be something you can expect the Hulk to shoot and not destroy in a fit of rage. So I don't see them tooling around with ultra rare (and fragile, I'm sure) equipment.

However, I can imagine a squad with rippa guns, heavy flamers, powerfists, democharges, eviscerators, etc blasting their way into the fray. More ideas:

Ogryns are big and strong. Ergo let them take a few Assault weapons along with a melee weapon on the other hand, or two of the assault weapon to make it twinlinked.

Ogryn 30 pts a model, Bone ead 40 points, so 1 bone ead+2 ogryn 100 points. You may take an additional Ogryn (up to 10 total) for +30 points.

-Can take an additional rippa gun for +5 points per model (twinlinks it)
-Can replace a rippa gun for a heavy flamer at +5 points/model.
-Can take 2 flamers to reroll wounds at +3 points/model.
-Can replace rippa gun with grenade launcher at +5 points/model
-Can take 2 grenade launchers to twinlink them at +3 points/model
-Bone ead can take a powerfist at +10 points, or replace his rippa gun with an eviscerator for +10 points.
-Bone ead can take demo charge at +20 points
-The entire squad may take Carapace armor at +30 points

I'd add stubborn as well, so they're less leadership fragile.

Jack

Jerjare wrote:Well, plasma cannons are supposed to be rare, and the fluff indicates Ogryn weapons have to be something you can expect the Hulk to shoot and not destroy in a fit of rage. So I don't see them tooling around with ultra rare (and fragile, I'm sure) equipment.

However, I can imagine a squad with rippa guns, heavy flamers, powerfists, democharges, eviscerators, etc blasting their way into the fray. More ideas:

Ogryns are big and strong. Ergo let them take a few Assault weapons along with a melee weapon on the other hand, or two of the assault weapon to make it twinlinked.

Ogryn 30 pts a model, Bone ead 40 points, so 1 bone ead+2 ogryn 100 points. You may take an additional Ogryn (up to 10 total) for +30 points.

-Can take an additional rippa gun for +5 points per model (twinlinks it)
-Can replace a rippa gun for a heavy flamer at +5 points/model.
-Can take 2 flamers to reroll wounds at +3 points/model.
-Can replace rippa gun with grenade launcher at +5 points/model
-Can take 2 grenade launchers to twinlink them at +3 points/model
-Bone ead can take a powerfist at +10 points, or replace his rippa gun with an eviscerator for +10 points.
-Bone ead can take demo charge at +20 points
-The entire squad may take Carapace armor at +30 points

I really like this. Not so sure about the flamers or grenade launchers, because I'm not sure a guardsmen would like being stuck in a chimera when one of them gets motion sickness and starts shooting the flamer off everywhere.
I would definently add in a Commisar (same cost as infantry squad commisar) and maybe stubborn.

Jackmojo wrote:I'd add stubborn as well, so they're less leadership fragile.

Jack

They are stubborn. The reason they need a lord commissar or Yarrick is that they are only ld 7 at 40 points a model.

MarbosMiyagi wrote:

Jackmojo wrote:I'd add stubborn as well, so they're less leadership fragile.

Jack

They are stubborn. The reason they need a lord commissar or Yarrick is that they are only ld 7 at 40 points a model.

Are they? Goes to show how long its been since I read them over to field them So bump their leadership to 8, perhaps 9 on the Bonehead.

Jack

Jerjare wrote:Well, plasma cannons are supposed to be rare, and the fluff indicates Ogryn weapons have to be something you can expect the Hulk to shoot and not destroy in a fit of rage. So I don't see them tooling around with ultra rare (and fragile, I'm sure) equipment.

However, I can imagine a squad with rippa guns, heavy flamers, powerfists, democharges, eviscerators, etc blasting their way into the fray. More ideas:

Ogryns are big and strong. Ergo let them take a few Assault weapons along with a melee weapon on the other hand, or two of the assault weapon to make it twinlinked.

Ogryn 30 pts a model, Bone ead 40 points, so 1 bone ead+2 ogryn 100 points. You may take an additional Ogryn (up to 10 total) for +30 points.

-Can take an additional rippa gun for +5 points per model (twinlinks it)
-Can replace a rippa gun for a heavy flamer at +5 points/model.
-Can take 2 flamers to reroll wounds at +3 points/model.
-Can replace rippa gun with grenade launcher at +5 points/model
-Can take 2 grenade launchers to twinlink them at +3 points/model
-Bone ead can take a powerfist at +10 points, or replace his rippa gun with an eviscerator for +10 points.
-Bone ead can take demo charge at +20 points
-The entire squad may take Carapace armor at +30 points

Definately adding flexibility to the Ogryn would be a great start. Cannot give them too much otherwise we run into turning Ogryn into a unit where we have would allocation shennanigans going on lke Ork Nobs. And with three wounds and T5, these Ogryn would be around too long to make the 30 points a too good a point range to have them at. In fact, that would be horribly undercosted; 40 points would be better.

I would agree that a cost of 30 points could be workable. However, how about equipping them with shotguns (Str3, Assault 2) at 30 points, then going to 35 points by adding in the Ripper Guns, but making it so that the whole unit takes the Ripper guns?

Twenty points for a Heavy Flamer (keeping consistent with the codex cost for Heavy Flamers to a squad) with the option to take 2.
Bone 'Ead gets the Powerfist upgrade exclusively, but at the pricier 25 points because we're talking about going from Str 5 to Str 10 with one upgrade. It is consistent with what powerfists cost Codex SM and Codex Ork who have much higher thresholds for how much their Str goes up because of the doubling the fist does for them.

Everything else I'm on the fence with, as how good do we want to make the Ogryn? They simply become super Guardsmen at their point cost with the number of upgrades they could get.