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Twin linking the ripper guns...hmmmmmm, very fun new idea indeed. Whether or not its overpowered is yet to be decided but defintly a creative idea that i must play test.

Ill agree about 20pts to upgrade to a heavy flamer just to keep consistent with codex standerds(no mater how overcosted that i may think it is!)

Not sure about the flamers and grenade launchers imo, but i can defintly see where your coming from and it is somthing to be thought about. Although...they are ogryns and giving them grenade launchers and flamers is starting to push the line(heck, we dont even give the conscripts those weapons)

Twinlinking the weapons though is somthing else entirely, it will need a little bit more thought put into it, as its a mechanic that isnt really called out that often, especialy for template weapons.

Democharge...why has noone else thought of this idea yet?! its PERFECT for them!!!

Carapace: rewrite rules to: Squad may buy carapace at 3pts per model in squad...alot clearer and is consistent with units who have variable numbers in their squad.


These are defintly new ideas, good ideas.Are they turning ogryns into super-guardsmen?maybe... but i rather like working with brand new ideas then rehashing the same old ones over and over again. Seems like a good start as any to me Feels fresh again.

king-newmic wrote:
Carapace: rewrite rules to: Squad may buy carapace at 3pts per model in squad...alot clearer and is consistent with units who have variable numbers in their squad.

I just want to toss out that flat pricing for variably sized squads is entirely consistent with how command squads pay for armour, grenades, and a few other things. Plus it helps encourage larger squads which is never bad.

Jack

I still wouldn't pay for them at 30+ points a model.

20 Points base sounds about right for these guys currently. That would be 60 points for a basic squad of three before any upgrades. That is more then a Chimera, a CCS, and a host of other basic options in the dex that would be a better choice.

I mainly say this because I have seen in games five man Ogryn squads in a Chimera downed in one round of shooting more times then I should have. In fact, last game I actually saw them in, he was playing against stock marines. Heavy weapon blew the IFV to hell, then a ten man Tac Squad with HB/Flamer double tapped and wiped the squad out.

Skill has a part to do with it, but you can only go so far with a turd before you have to admit that your unit is doing so good not because of skill, but pure blind luck.

There is a reason why nobody who plays Imperial Guard even halfway serious runs them.

kenshin620 wrote:they dont really need heavy weapons. Not sure why you'd need DS ogryns

Okay...ditch SaP but...hear me out and look at this: http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat440074a&prodId=prod1040004

Orgyns /w HWs would rock. Er...at least maybe a special blast weapon/cannon. Give them guns worth thier size. As far as DS it's more like using DS Terms in SM armies, land them in the midst of the other guys force, shoot em up and then hold thier army down as they try to chew through thier toughness. They do need 4+ saves though if not armor, then at least thier girth should provide it.

@jackmojo: i had thought this out and even though large squads are good...
A)
Command squads: they pay a little bit more upfront by +1pt for carapace then normal but its not a big leap in points and you can even it out with the regimental advisors...not a big deal
Ogryns:10pts for carapace...Very Big Deal when you factor that it really, really hurts for people to play these guys in small games or in small squads.
B)
There are plenty of things that are put in cost increments because it would be silly to force people to pay upfront to get the benfit of it. Conscripts/ Sentinals/ Smoke launchers/ RoughRiders/etc.
Your dont pay for the full maxed out unit...i dont buy the cost of 3 Sentinals just so i can get the chance to use 1 nor do i buy carpace for 10 ogryns when im using 4 of them

In the end a regressive tax on equipment is not fun at all IMO...

@kingmanhighborn: ogryns may work well with heavy weapons but we would need a point cost and a weapon could carry and work it out from there. also, a play test of them with big guns would be nice to see if it worked or not.

jp400 wrote:I still wouldn't pay for them at 30+ points a model.

20 Points base sounds about right for these guys currently. That would be 60 points for a basic squad of three before any upgrades. That is more then a Chimera, a CCS, and a host of other basic options in the dex that would be a better choice.

I mainly say this because I have seen in games five man Ogryn squads in a Chimera downed in one round of shooting more times then I should have. In fact, last game I actually saw them in, he was playing against stock marines. Heavy weapon blew the IFV to hell, then a ten man Tac Squad with HB/Flamer double tapped and wiped the squad out.

Skill has a part to do with it, but you can only go so far with a turd before you have to admit that your unit is doing so good not because of skill, but pure blind luck.

There is a reason why nobody who plays Imperial Guard even halfway serious runs them.

First off, 20 point is ridiculously under priced. You know what else is base 20 points? Nobs, and Ogryns have the same or better stats in everything but leadership.

The reason that no ones take ogryn is because Guard is an army about quantity over quality. They simply don't fit the the normal theme. If a list was built to take their strengths strengths in consideration they would do much better. I agree then need to fixing, allowing them a few more options would do that well, but they sure as hell do not need to be 20 points.

Agreeing with much of what's been said already. I've ran Ogryn before in my foot list, and while hilarious, performed well only half the time. Making them 30pts with the ability to purchase a Commissar (not an IC, wheeee!) and a power fist for the Bone Head would make them perfect while not being overpowered. Possibly 35pts.

Ogryns are just a really awkward unit. The cost is a bit much true, but I feel it is simply the lack of upgrades that drags them down. Having two free swap outs, either for low costing toys, or allowing the bonehead to swap his shotgun for a power weapon would be golden. Pay 130pts for 3 models, get free power weapon. All of a sudden it sounds more fun.

The squad depends on fluff for play sake, but with no upgrades its hard to make them fluffy and your own.

So Ogryns=
30pts base Ogryn
35 pts for bone 'ead
Ogryn bone 'ead has access to:
-Powerfist at 25 pts
-Ogryn club at 10 pts (+2 str.)
-Democharge at 20pts
Up to 2 ogryns may replace there weapons with:
-Twin linked Ripper guns at 5pts
-Heavy flamer at 15pts
-Lug gun (18" str 6 ap 4 assult 3) at 10pts...its a big old gun that fires big explosive shells rather then buckshot

Entire squad may carry carapace at 3pts per model

and either A) add a Commisar at 35pts or B)+1 leadership at +5 pts increase for all the models to be more like old Ogryns.

Ogryn Dedicated Transport:

'Atlas' Pattern Chimera- 65 points

The atlas is open-topped and loses the multilaser turret (but retains the hull heavy bolter/flamer) and can carry a full squad of Ogryn. The atlas was developed to operate on the same kind of hi-gravity worlds the Ogryn hail from- so it is stripped down in order to carry them more efficiently.

After recent times I have no clue if GW has any method, or knows advanced army list design, but normally a point cost comparison isn't accurate unless all other things in the army are the same. So you can only compare ogryns to other IG, and maybe not even then, because nothing else in the codex is like them.

It's like if IG got a heavily armor jump pack assault squad. A lame codex would have them cost the same as a SM assault squad, but real game design would make them much more expensive;
1) That is not something that fits into IG's theme.
2) If fills a huge gap in the army's weaknesses, thereby being just plain unfair. (May be worth noting that the gap appears to be filled by Ogryns.)
3) I'm sure there's more, but i'm too tired.

I would like to say how there's no need to change a codex for 1 unit, because it should've been tested and fine, but who knows anymore. Changing a codex because it doesn't match modern rules (BT, DA), or because it doesn't match how it should really be (this includes armies that lazily get merged with others into 1 book, so the list is longer than I can guess at), those are worthy reasons.

There could be alot of factors making you think they are bad, see if you can change those. Not all things are fair at all times.

I have nothing else to add, so continue if you wish.

side note: We used to think anything large on a large base counted as monstrous, until we learned otherwise, wraiths and ogryns sure were scary.

let me start off by taking a slegehammer to the soapbox you stand on.

1)Points values:
GW does indeed have an Advanced Army List Design Schematic...its called the point system. It starts with the space marine. Then you build a mainline trooper and compare it to the space marine...does it measure up? Good, congrats, you now have a new Main-line Tooper Unit. Now its time to use the new Main-line Tooper and build their respective codex around it.
From there it gets iffy as you get into the finer details of things and think them out on wether or not there working. BUT, they do have a points system in place to work/play around with.

Also, that last point makes little sense if you think about it. You campare ogryns to guardsmen the same way you compare guardsmen to grenade launchers. Via POINTS. They may not do the same thing but they should prove similar in effectiveness. Also you compare them via battlefeild experience...cruise the army list forums, how many ogryns did you find? Well shucks i wonder why.

2) Very hard to see whats the point of bringing in the jump-pack guard(even though they were in the codex once) if your tired, get some sleep and try again. remeber, you cant fight a battle with your eyes half closed, so dont waste peoples time with a half thought out argument. Bring in those big guns and make us think.

3)Yes, they're are things that are even more broken then ogryns. But, i dont own a chaos codex nor do i own a tyranids/necrons/orks/spacemarine/GK/necron/dark eldar/ eldar/every other army that i havent named. If i played them and knew how to fix them, i'd try...but i don't so i do the next best thing and fix the things i do know how to repair.

4)And no, not all things are fair all the time but its silly to stare at problem and leave something broken when you have all the power if the world to try and fix it.

5)Also, we know what the problems are with ogryns...thats whats this ENTIRE thread is about.

6)Thank you for your input, even though it had nothing to add to the thread at hand.

side-to-side note:Ogryns do look scary, so lets make them BE scary.


Final note:,I do not aim to be rude but this is a thread dedicated to giving people an alternative to the rules as shown in the codex. To paraphrase one Dakka user:
Dont like them? Then dont use them. End of story

(EDIT: i just added numbers to the paragraph and fixed a couple spelling errors)

Just before this thread passes into the alcoves of history, I just wanna know if this the final draft of fixing ogryns so that way we can officially say that, after several weeks of debate, this is the final result?

OGRYN SQUAD: 105pts
2 Ogryns
1 Ogryn Bone 'ead

-may add another seven Ogryns to squad at 35pts per model
-may add a Commisar to the squad at 35 pts per model

Bone 'ead may be upgraded with:
-Powerfist at 25 pts
-Democharge at 20 pts

Up to 2 Ogryns may replace their ripper guns with:
-Twin linked Ripper Guns at 5pts
-Lug Gun(18" str 6 ap 4 assault 3) at 10pts
-Heavy Flamer at 15pts

the squad may be upgraded to carapace at 3pts per model.

the ogyns still carry the same special rules and stats as stated in the codex.

extra rules that you may add if you find ogryns lacking still(which is highly doubtfull)

Atlas chimera (dedicated transport): chimera that is open topped,can carry full squad of ogryns, and has no multilaser-65 pts


Sooo, did we do good, or is this a unit thats still under construction?

Atlas chimera (dedicated transport): chimera that is open topped,can carry full squad of ogryns, and has no multilaser-65 pts

So tell me again why I am paying nearly 10pts more for a Chimera that is easier to destroy and missing it's main weapon?

At the very least, keep the standard dedicated transport as a viable option and give people the ability to choose which one they want. Or better yet, allow then to take a Chimera for every 5 ogryns in the squad and allow them to shoot independently at the cost of not being able to assault that turn. (cause you have to assault the unit you shoot, split fire = not same unit)

In the end though, I like the options and I like the upgrades, but I still can't justify spending 35-38pts per model. I can do more with less elsewhere, like buy two chimeras for my vets for +5 points over base cost before upgrades.

kenshin620 wrote:Although be wary if the wind is too strong

Or if they forget it isn't a treat

The 10pts extra is to make sure that, as the number rule with making new rules is, to always over-price a unit by a little then to under-price it by a little.The Chimeras in my opnion need to be moved up to 65pts and be slighty rule tweaked for several reasons but thats for a diffrent thread. The Atlas allows the Ogryns to jump out the same turn and assult, has 12 armour plating on the front, and allows for a whole lot of shooting to be done when you move. Its defintly somthing to be feared.

buying 2 chimeras for every ogryns has its own problems in terms of game mechanics and shooting at two diffrent targets poses the same thing.

if you feel your paying too much for this you can always roll down the ogryns by 5pts (Again, always overprice, never under price) but keep in mind that the ogryns are primarily a soak'em up and assult/counter assult unit, not a shooting platform/transport for grunts.

Also, im thinking of rewording the powerfist, im not sure if they can use it although they might be able to use something similar.