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I have noticed in some fluff and illustrations, that space marines are often doing battle without a helmet, especially space wolves. My question is, in the midst of a pitched battle, would this not make them relatively easy to kill with all the metal flying around? or would a head shot not be enough to kill them with their superhuman bodies and all?

Part of becoming a marine must involve removing any vital organs from exposed parts of the body. It's my only guess.

Yeah.
Plot armour tends to negate many attempts at headshots however.

They're so uber-tough that their sense of honour dictates that they start with at least a bit of a handicap.

They swap metal armour for plot armour.

I would think so too, but in Hunt for Voldorius, the alpha legionare Nullus, who is quite formidable, is disabled by a shot to the back of the head. that being the case, it seems like alot more space marines should be getting killed by puny little nobodies.

"Disabled" doesn't necessarily mean dead.

The other thing you're failing to recognize is that those shoulderpads, the chestplate, etc all play a pretty good role in ensuring that headshots don't happen.

Headshots are nowhere near as easy to make on targets at distance than most people believe.

The answer is, no, it would not make them easier to kill.

Why? Well, because 40K functions according to the Rule Of Cool (occasionally spelled 'Kewl" in some remote sectors).

The Rule of Cool: If it is cool, it will work, regardless of how practical or impractical it is. Example: Chainswords. A chainsaw-sword? Impractical. Poorly-balanced. Impossible to power without changing the batteries every 5 minutes. But also undeniably cool. Therefore: CHAINSWORDS!

So in this instance, charging into battle without a helmet looks COOL. Getting killed by stray shots or shrapnel is NOT COOL, therefore nobody dies that way. Therefore: striding around the battles in 40K without a helmet is PERFECTLY SAFE!

Kanluwen wrote:"Disabled" doesn't necessarily mean dead.

The other thing you're failing to recognize is that those shoulderpads, the chestplate, etc all play a pretty good role in ensuring that headshots don't happen.

Headshots are nowhere near as easy to make on targets at distance than most people believe.

I do a fair ammount of target shooting with pistols, rifles, and shotguns, and I agree with your statement, it is very very hard to achieve. But on a battlefield where thousands or millions of enemies or maybe smaller groups of sometimes proffesional opponents like traitor marines or guardsment or dark eldar are arrayed against the emperors finest, and a space marine officer would certainly attract a great deal of attention, it seems like it would be more of a fluke for it not to happen

By that same vein, with "thousands or millions of enemies" are firing...there's not going to necessarily be the concentration of firepower required to ensure that.

The "Traitor Marines" or "Guardsmen" you're referring to usually aren't big on fire discipline either. Dark Eldar...ehhh. Maybe. The brief on the gunners on Ravagers seems to suggest that they focus just long enough to bring down targets then try to gut people from their seats with spears/lances.

"Marine Officers" usually aren't immediately recognizable on the field, at least without their helmets.

They're probably tough enough to withstand a shot to the head from a lasgun or significanty low powered enough weapon; shootas or anything larger and he's a gonner (ie whenever you see Crimson Fists there's always one getting shot in the face by an Ork). Some marines do have studs in their foreheads possibly signifying old head surgery too. ....But yeah, plot armour.

You don't even need a headshot. A simple frag grenade can be enough.

Wyrmalla wrote:They're probably tough enough to withstand a shot to the head from a lasgun or significanty low powered enough weapon; shootas or anything larger and he's a gonner (ie whenever you see Crimson Fists there's always one getting shot in the face by an Ork). Some marines do have studs in their foreheads possibly signifying old head surgery too. ....But yeah, plot armour.

Nope. Each of those studs in their heads signifies a century of service to the Chapter.

Dont they usually carry some much more elaborate weaponry, and have some distinguishing armor? Kor'sarro Khan was easily distinguishable because of his unique cloak and power sword, so the enemy specifically targeted him, to give an example. and it seems like individuals such as CSM's who were once part of the imperial military machine would be able to spot a high ranking space marine, or even recognize him personally. And what I was getting at with the number of opponents was that a great deal of them would be inclined to concentrate their fire on an officer, not that the sheer volume of lead in the air means he would get hit, although that seems apparent as well.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
forgot to quote Kan

IN Brothers of the Snake the Original Apothecary of the squad get shot in the head by a bunch of chaos farmers.

The Unforgiven Saint wrote:IN Brothers of the Snake the Original Apothecary of the squad get shot in the head by a bunch of chaos farmers.

So it seems to me like plot armor is the only explanation.

I don't think helmets would help much with the sniper weapons we see in 40k. Outside of sharpshooters, you probably don't see too many head shots. I also think the giant shoulder pads they wear would help.

It's the Rule of Cool, and happens frequently only in artwork. Outside of that, in the fluff, Marines aren't stupid enough to run around with their most vital organ unprotected. Say what you want about the probability of a headshot, it would still be a stupid thing to do. Explosions, which means shrapnel, debris, and the actual impact of hitting the gorund or something else, and the possible flames and heat produced from it would certainly add to the probability of a head injury, so would hits from close combat, and explosive impacts on the upper chest and edges of the shoulder pads.

In artwork, they don't have helmets so you can see facial expressions. its purely artistic license, you could think that the artist painted the faces without helmets when in the actual battle everyone had their helmet on.

all of my space marines keep their helmets on.

Space Wolves don't wear their helmets often because their senses are more acute with them off(and the beards get in the way)

It's like face visors in hockey (and helmets before they were mandatory). They should wear them but some guys want to be cool.

Another possibility is that, during the course of the battle, their helmet has already stopped 16 las hits, 4 bolter rounds, 3 frag missles and a glancing melta-bomb...

... the optics and auto-senses are fried, they took the thing off so they could see!

If the HH novels are to be believed, Space Marine helmets become inoperable when a fly-sized or larger gently makes contact with them.

Whilst headshots are pretty difficult to achieve, heads are still prone to get hit by the sheer volume of stray projectiles and shrapnel and whatever is flying around on the battlefield, especially in the kind of nasty close combat fighting the Marines deploy in. It's the reason for why they slap thick armour even on their weapons, and so it boggles the mind as to why they don't do the same for their heads.

Tl;dr: +1 for the Rule of Cool explanation.

I also like Psienesis' idea, though most(?) Marine Sergeants seem to wear a commlink, so they wouldn't have lost their helmet in just that battle, unless every Astartes carries a replacement headset with him.

But he could've lost his helmet in the campaign, or perhaps even decades ago? Maybe the Chapter just doesn't get enough spare helmets for veterans, so it's become some sort of honour-tradition that the vets voluntarily decline them so that they may be issued to new Marines?

(not a truly solid explanation/excuse, but hey )

They do make frequent mention of the Marines putting on their helmets in the fluff. The artwork, on the other hand, needs to be visually engaging, and facial expressions help facilitate that.

No, not wearing helmets makes absolutely no sense, but a combination of the rule of cool and recognition of characters is a big thing. Protection, battle coordination mean nothing alongside these two things.

"Squads Triken and Raylek, coordinate volleys on target beta-beta-gamma. Squad Hylek, proceed to the new objective marked omega-ten. Squad Lorken--"

"Wait, what?"

"DAMNIT, CEDRIC PUT YOUR HELMET ON!"

That is one area in which the Ultramarine movie was good, they all wore their damn helmets during the battle scenes(except at the end when they were caught unawares)

You ever aim a sniper rifle at some mother fether with plot armor? I don't recommend it. Lost my legs when i aimed at an Ork Warchief because SOMEHOW a baneblade landed on them. A GOD DAMNED BANEBLADE!

My best friend took aim at a helmetless Chaos lord and a daemon prince of Nurgle materialized beside him. Beyond all reason it just popped up there and stopped him.

My Daddy managed to take the shot on a rogue marine but guess what. THE SHOT CURVED! Honest to god his shot from a longlas curved and hit the man beside him. He managed to survive but the second attempt he was killed by a rock slide that was triggered by him flicking open his scope. The sound of his scope locking its cover into place TRIGGERED A ROCK SLIDE!

Point? Don't aim for the bastards head, if they look imporant, hold a melee weapon, and don't wear a helmet; DO NOT AIM FOR THEM!

coolyo294 wrote: Each of those studs in their heads signifies a century of service to the Chapter.

More likely that each of those " studs " is just the tail end of a slug that didn't get through the solid bone of their skulls.

'Blessed is the mind too small for doubt' and all that.

Kanluwen wrote:
Headshots are nowhere near as easy to make on targets at distance than most people believe.

Not when you have right weapon and equipment:

Well the marine bone structure is very hard the Osseous implant (thing thats what its called) toughens their bones up so their skulls are probably tougher than carapace armour, that means most small caliber weapons like autoguns, regular lasguns (hotshot clips excluded), shrapnel and shrapnel based weaponry are gonna be rather inneffective unless they get incredibly lucky and hit an eye. Anything like a bolter round or harder is probably gonna shred a helmet at close range anyway.

I'm sure I've read in the fluff about auto rounds and lasrounds ricocheting off a marines skull causing flesh damage but little else, Plus the fact that a marine could probably keep fighting with half his head gone (he would obviously die eventually but in the short term I mean) providing it didnt hit the areas which controlled motor function.