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Gue'Vesa fill the role of mid-range fire support between Kroot and Fire Warriors. Due to continued attrition taking its toll on the Fire Caste, Crisis Suit teams are stretched thin supporting squads of Fire Warriors who lack the heavy weapons needed to take on the ever-growing dangers of the galaxy. In their great wisdom, the Ethereal Caste, with the counsel of the Water Caste, have inducted the newly enlightened Gue'la into the ranks of the Tau Auxiliaries. The Earth Caste has armed them with weapons to fit their role, while the Fire Caste have trained them in the use of the powerful new technologies. The traditionalist factions of the Fire Caste have balked at the mere prospect of fighting alongside lowly Gue'la, let alone arming them with the technology of the Empire. However, there are few other options as more and more Tau lives are being lost in the many wars being fought. Are the Gue'Vesa able to contribute to the Greater Good?

Gue'Vesa Fire Support Squad[75pts] Fast Attack Choice
WS3 BS4 S3 T3 W1 I3 A1 Ld7 Sv5+ Gue'Vesa'La
WS3 BS4 S3 T3 W1 I3 A2 Ld8 Sv5+ Gue'Vesa'Ui
Composition:
3 Gue'Vesa'La
1 Gue'Vesa'Ui

Wargear:
Carapace Armour
Pulse Carbine or Pulse Rifle
Pulse Pistol
Photon Grenades

Options:
4 Gue'Vesa'La may be added to the unit at 13pts each

Up to 3 Gue'Vesa'La may be replace their Pulse Carbine or Rifle with one of the following:
Plasma Rifle[15pts]
Fusion Blaster[10pts]
Rail Rifle[10pts]
Flamer[5pts]
Fragmentation Projector[15pts]
R18" S4 AP5 Assault1 3" Blast

The unit may be equipped with EMP Grenades for 20pts
The unit may take a Devilfish as a dedicated Transport.

Special Rule: Death to Traitors! - Fearing retribution from their betrayed brethen, the Gue'Vesa fight for their lives. This rule gives Preferred Enemy to the Gue'Vesa against any Imperial Unit they come into assault with AND ALSO gives Imperial units Preferred Enemy to Gue'Vesa to Imperial Units in the assault.

Seems ok. What exactly makes humans on the side of tau better shooters than humans on the side of imperium? BS 4 is space marine level. Don't tell me that tau can magic them into better shooters.

I have to agree with Moom: BS4 is kinda silly (Especially with FW being only BS3). Scale it down to BS3 and it'll be fine.

How many of the Gue'vesa can take the weapon upgrades? I'd suggest 1 or 2 tops, so they don't become an IG special weapons team.

Sounds like a good idea though, although just to give you a heads-up this will probably be nixed hard and crtiticised extensively by certain party-pooper fluffbunnies on the Dakka Proposed Rules forum.

I simply don't think it's different enough from Firewarriors to warrant a separate unit and IMHO this is the problem with any Gue'Vesa unit...

Other feedback regarding the heart of the rules; I see why they're only 4-8 men or that the 'ui is no different from the 'la?
Finally, I don't understand how they are carrying battlesuit weapons which A) are arguably too valuable to be carried by them and B) arguably too big to be carried by them. You've also not stated how many may select these options (typo)...\



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh and I second the BS3 suggestions too!

Thanks for your responses. Now to address them.

darkPrince010 wrote:
How many of the Gue'vesa can take the weapon upgrades? I'd suggest 1 or 2 tops, so they don't become an IG special weapons team.

That's actually what I intended. Did you read the bit of fluff I wrote for them?

I made them BS4 to represent them being the survivors of the Imperium's battle that have been inducted into the Fire Warrior Caste. I actually based the unit on the IG Veteran Guardsmen.

There supposed to have 3 special weapons and the 'Ui is supposed to be A2 and Ld8.

The reason they're using "battlesuit" weapons is because they're actually using repurposed Imperial gear.
Fusiongun=Meltagun
Plasma Rifle=Plasma Gun
AFP=Frag Grenade Launcher

I guess my only issue at the moment is that they're better compared to battlesuits in every way save for mobility.

I understand (and like fluff-wise) why you're adding them as BS4, but for 15 points more than a single Crisis Suit, you're giving them +1BS, +2 W, and +1 Ld for the loss of 1 T and 1 Sv. While putting them in a Fast Attack slot to compete with Pathfinders/Pirahnas is a good idea imo, they're severely undercosted (Especially with the wargear: Plasma rifles should stay 20 pts each since they don't run the risk of Gets Hot!).

Also, keep in mind you're giving them Photon Grenades while keeping them 10pts apiece, even though the equivalent Tau unit (Ethereal Honor Guard) with Photon grenades would be 13 pts apiece. Also, why do they have Pulse Pistols? If it's to give them the advantadge of the pistol/CCW for +1 A, that's yet another way they're superior to Fire Warirors for less points.

I like what you're doing, and I think the fact that the Gue'Vesa compete with Pathfinders for the Fast Attack slot is important to take into account for their unit cost, but you're basically making for all intents and purposes a 40 pt Shas'el Commander (~same # of weapons, ~overall durability, same BS, ~same attacks). I think if you bump the unit cost up to around 75ish pts, with 13 pts per additional Gue'Vesa, you'll be in a lot better shape balance-wise.

darkprince010 you make some good points. I didn't think of it that way. Good call making cost as much as scouts. Points costs have been amended. I will however make plasma the imperial cost of 15pts. While they don't risk overheating, they are on non-relentess infantry and are S6.

Also, since they are supposed to be between Kroot and Fire Warriors, should I give the unit access to power weapons? Either as another special weapon or sergeant weapon along with a tau plasma pistol?

Looks good.

Only tweaks I'd suggest would be keeping the EMP grenade cost the same as for Fire Warriors (3pts per model) instead of a flat rate, as more models with grenades means more chances to wreck a vehicle, and explicitly stating the Rail Rifle does not also come with a Target Lock (Or if it does, bump the cost up by ~5 pts).

Just curious, do you plan on having the Gue'Vesa'ui being allowed to buy wargear or a markerlight like a FW Shas'ui?

As it currently is EMPs cost between 5-2.5 pts per model depending on unit size. I feel that this is fine.

You're right on the Rail Rifle, they dont' come with TLs. However, IIRC from the Pathfinder unit. They cost 10 pts WITH the TL so they'd actually be 5pts. Since you brought this up, I'm going to keep the cost and change the profile to:
Sniper Rail Rifle R36" S6 AP3 Heavy1, Rending, Pinning

I think I'll give the 'Ui access to Bonding Knives only. I feel they don't need the rest of the gear to fulfill their role.

I'm also going to add my rendition of Death to Traitors.

I like the bonding-knife-only bit for the 'Ui, but I'd remove the Rending from the rail rifle (They don't have it in the rulebook, only pinning). As for the price for EMP grenades, you're right, I didn't realise you'd have to max out the squad to make it slightly a bargain.

Sounds good!

Do they ever say that the Rail Rifle Pathfinders are fulfilling sniper duties in the fluff? I would think so since they're supposed to be scouts(now if only they had infiltrate too). Since their supposed to be sniper weapons, that's why I added the rending and made them 10pts without the target-lock.

And just wondering? Are you a Tau Player? I would assume so since you're using the Tau Title track. Do you play any other armies?

I've played a smidge of Space Marines and IG, but mainly Nids other than Tau.

I guess I just don't see the point of giving them Rending, as this would mean they could punch through Av14 with a roll of 6, and the AP3 will already kill anything that's not a terminator.

Fluffwise Tau don't allow ANY infantry to have heavy or even special weapons. That is reserved for the battlesuit veterans.


IMO this is a poor fluff-based idea, and the fact that they can now do a Crisis Suit's job better is even worse.

Technically, battlesuits are heavy infantry. And the Tau do allow the Kroot, which are auxiliaries as well, to mount heavy weapons on knarlocs and krootox.

And they can't do a Crisis Suits Job because they lack the survivability and the mobility.

If it's mounted on a beast, then it's cavalry, not infantry. I don't care if it's in the troops section. Also, your fluff reason for BS4 is flimsy. If they're vets of a Damocles war, wouldn't the be less likely to defect, since the Tau are the ones who were shooting at them. If these vets are from a different campaign, they are likely to be more loyal to the imperium, even if they're shell shocked from war.

Also, straight carapace armor? For auxiliaries considered lower than the Tau? I simply don't see it.

A squad of Gue'Vesa can do that job, since it's a squad, and not a single beast of war. If the krootox takes hits, and dies, the gun is gone. If a squad takes hits, you can allocate them to less important units. I guess there's less wiggle room with squads of 4, but it's still a half-valid point.

Am I the only one that thinks they are grossly overcosted? 75points for 4 T3 4+ guys is just way too much, especially without any devastating weaponry.

Well, they're balanced points-wise in regards to the rest of the Tau codex...

My suggestion would be to cheapen them up and give them back their flak jackets AC 5+ Then lower their cost to 8 a piece. To make them fluff fit the tau and not stomp all over the suits perhaps make them BS 3 and force them into pulse carbines ( pulse rifles are just too big for balanced fire for non-Tau.) I would also limit them to the same choices they would have as human guardsmen - fusion, plasma, flamer and a grenade launcher.

Nothing wrong with the options you have but I get nervous about BS4 humans who are definitely better than any firewarrior and coming close to stomping on the crisis suit role in the army. Perhaps allow them to follow more of a guardsman platoon formation. (1 5-man cmd squad with up to 4 Special weapons and then 1 to 5 8 man platoons with 1 special weapon per squad.)

If you do make them a guardsman squad like Daddict suggests, I'd reccomend making them non-scoring Troops, since otherwise there's no strong incentive to take them over Pathfinders or other Fast Attack options

After reading all the responses, I've decided to:
Removing rending from the Railrifle
Give them Flak Armour

I will not however, make them BS3 and as a result am not going to lower their cost. I still believe that the Guardsmen that get inducted into the Gue'Vesa would be the pragmatic survivors, like Sergeant Merrick from DoW2 Retribution.

With these changes, the Tau will have access to special weapons outside of Crisis Suits from a unit that does not compete with Crisis Suits because they are more vulnerable and lack the movement of battlesuits.

As a closing note, if I do go the Platoon Route, how balanced would it be to bring in Junior Officers? I intend to restrict the orders only to Gue'Vesa units until I come up with the rules to make a Gue'Vesa Company Command Squad.

Perhaps have a smaller order set, ones that are more Tau-ey (Something like "Fall Back!" to enable hit and run for the next combat, or "For the Greater Good!" to make them Stubborn or Fearless until their next turn).

Plus, for the Heavy Weapon Teams I'd caution no railguns (and probably not ion cannons) so Broadsides and railheads remain special snowflakes, but they can take the "Special issue" suit weapons or a TL suit weapon for slightly higher points.

I would not include heavy weapon teams at all for Gue'Vesa as it does not fit the tau concept of battle. I mean heavy weapons teams maybe hard hitting but they are far from fast and mobile. Also I would ignore orders in totals as that is the guard's special ability and I feel it should remain so.

Last, is it just me or do some of you other feel that Gue'Vesa should be almost the tau's counterpart to conscripts?

I have agree with Stroggified, Heavy Weapons are static and wouldn't mesh too well with the Tau way of war, barring Sniper Drone Teams, and Broadsides without A.S.S.

I'd take something closer to what comes from the IG infantry codex.

I'm not sure why the Gue'Vesa would be armed with Tau weaponry. Lasguns, should be fine.

After all, Kroot still use kroot rifles instead of Pulse weapons, even if pulse weapons are superior. Even in Tau space, the rugged and easily manufactured las gun should be available.

I'd have Gue'Vesa used as Infantry Squads from the IG Codex. To represent the availability of these conscripts, you could take 1-3 units Infantry Squads for a single Troop Slot.

Since the Gue'Vesa aren't part of the IG structure any more, I wouldn't let them have PCS, SWS or HWS. A "commissar" might be okay, if it was fluffed as a outspoken proponent of the Greater Good.

But that just my opinion, I've always seen Gue'Vesa not as veterans who switched sides, but as crazy true believers recruited from human populations.

Instead of a "commissar" you could make it a tau overseer. Think of a fire warrior sarge who keeps an eye on the lowly humans.

Stroggified wrote:Instead of a "commissar" you could make it a tau overseer. Think of a fire warrior sarge who keeps an eye on the lowly humans.

The fluff stated, somewhere that the Tau make it a point to give the auxiliaries their own leaders, at least on the lower echelons, to foster trust. In fact the Chapter Approved Gue'Vesa had a Gue'Vesa'Ui lead the squad rather than a Shas'Ui.

Thatguyoverthere wrote:I'd take something closer to what comes from the IG infantry codex.

I'm not sure why the Gue'Vesa would be armed with Tau weaponry. Lasguns, should be fine.

After all, Kroot still use kroot rifles instead of Pulse weapons, even if pulse weapons are superior. Even in Tau space, the rugged and easily manufactured las gun should be available.

I'd have Gue'Vesa used as Infantry Squads from the IG Codex. To represent the availability of these conscripts, you could take 1-3 units Infantry Squads for a single Troop Slot.

Since the Gue'Vesa aren't part of the IG structure any more, I wouldn't let them have PCS, SWS or HWS. A "commissar" might be okay, if it was fluffed as a outspoken proponent of the Greater Good.

But that just my opinion, I've always seen Gue'Vesa not as veterans who switched sides, but as crazy true believers recruited from human populations.

I'm pretty sure I answered this in one of my earlier posts, but I'll reiterate.

I gave the Gue'Vesa the Tau equivalents of Imperial Weapons to make them feel more integrated into the Empire.
Fusion Blaster=Meltagun, Plasma Rifle=Plasma Gun, Flamer they both have, Rail rifle=Sniper Rifle, and a mini AFP=Grenade Launcher
Also, Kroot rifles were modified to fire pulse rounds similar to the Pulse Rifle. The only real difference, within the fluff, are the blade attachments.

I will submit that the base weapon probably should be a lasgun as opposed to a pulse weapon.

Also, the Tau wouldn't encourage Commissars since they put more value into life of their troops than the Imperium.

If I remember correctly, the Guardsmen who became Gue'Vesa were the ones that were stranded on Tau worlds after the bulk of the Imperial Guard withdrew. I don't think they willingly joined and instead did so to stay alive.

I hate to nitpick, but joining for survival is still willing. Col. Hans Landen assisted the allies in Inglourious Basterds because he saw the ugly end of the Nazi regime. Being a survivalist doesn't make you a better shot. It just makes you a traitor.

The second line from the bottom made me spit out the tea I was drinking. And it fell on my crotch. They may put more value into tau soldiers, but the reasons they have these auxiliaries are to avoid Tau death. I'm no expert on Tau fluff, but that seems to be the case to me. They don't even leave garrisons on captured planets, instead letting them arm themselves.

I still don't agree with the BS4, but I don't feel like arguing any more, I see some smoke.

It seems like everyone feels that the Gue'Vesa should be BS3
I'm going to ask, what is dakkadakka's view on the balance of IG Veteran Squads?

As opposed to the old IG Codex, Veterans are now scoring, have doctrines, and multiple units can be taken. Does this make them overpowered?

Like I said earlier, I modeled the Gue'Vesa off of them, and I want know how you feel. My insistence on making them BS4 probably stems from my personal experience of never making 4+ rolls.

And @moom241:
You are entitled to your own opinion, am what I am going to say is not supposed to be confrontational at all. You are right that the Tau probably do value the life of a Tau more than that of a subject race, however, I don't think this means they are going to needlessly execute them, the way commissars do.

The Guard veterans weren't the ones going over to become Gue'vasa. It was mostly the Conscripts and PDFs that have done it.

Look at the aftermath Taros as an example. You had the "hardcore" Cadian, Tallarn, and Elysians--of which any taken prisoner by the Tau were then worked to death since they wouldn't take up arms against the Imperium.

And quite frankly, the Tau don't need "Veteran Squads" of humans. Gue'vasa are not veterans, and many are volunteers with little to no combat training prior to joining.

What you should do rather than spend all your time complaining about the humans having better veteran units is come up with something unique and satisfying for the Fire Warriors.

I personally think we just need the option for buying Veteran Fire Warriors as troops or something, instead of as add-ons for bullet magnets.

If you wanted to make a more "expendable" Gue'vesa, you could always make him a squad purchase, kinda like a drone: He's a WS1 S3 T3 I1 5+ Sv shackled meat shield, costs ~7-10 pts each, don't count towards Morale Checks if killed (But do count towards total wounds caused for CR in a CC) and a squad is limited to like 3 or 5 of them.