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So, I am running 10 Death Company + Astorath in a Stormraven. If I choose to use Skies of Blood, can I use Astorath as the model placed for the Deep Strike, then use Descent of Angels for his scatter, then place the other, non-Jump Infantry around him?

Interesting enough question... DoA (pg 23 BA codex) doesn't actually say what to do if a unit is mixed in this way. It does however only talk about units, not individual models. I'd think it's only fair to assume all models should have it in order for a unit to get the benefit of it.

No, as if deep striking is not the same as deep striking. Skies of blood says "as if deep striking", descent of angels says "deep striking".

Leo_the_Rat wrote:No, as if deep striking is not the same as deep striking. Skies of blood says "as if deep striking", descent of angels says "deep striking".

And then it goes on to say, "Models with jump packs can make a more controlled descent - not only do they not take Dangerous Terrain tests (unless they do land in dangerous terrain), they can use the Descent of Angels special rule to make a more accurate landing.

So, I deploy my squad "As if deep striking". . .

I look up the Deep Strike rules and I find that I have to place a single model first, then scatter it. I place Astorath and, since he is a model with a jump pack, Skies of Blood allows me to use Descent of Angels. I use Descent of Angels to scatter Astorath, and then I deploy everyone else around him, taking the necessary Dangerous Terrain tests for the non-JI models.

One problem though maybe, not all have DoA so wouldnt it be like a HQ with Infiltrate and a squad without

You're misquoting the rule:
"A Blood Angels unit with this special rule can re-roll failed reserve rolls if arriving by Deep Strike. Also, due to the precision of their descent, it scatters a D6 less (normally D6" rather than 2D6").
Other units in the Blood Angels army that can arrive by Deep Strike do so using the normal rules." Blood Angel Codex p23.

That is the entirety of the rule. Descent of Angels applies only to Deep Striking and nothing else. You can try to use fluff to make your case but fluff does not equal a rule. Even if that were the case all of the units Deep Striking would have to have the DoA rule for it to work since the rule specifically says that if they don't have the rule then they use the normal rules for Deep Striking.

the fluffy rule on the StormRaven is a rule, and if they all had jump packs it would work as normal

Leo_the_Rat wrote:You're misquoting the rule:
"A Blood Angels unit with this special rule can re-roll failed reserve rolls if arriving by Deep Strike. Also, due to the precision of their descent, it scatters a D6 less (normally D6" rather than 2D6").
Other units in the Blood Angels army that can arrive by Deep Strike do so using the normal rules." Blood Angel Codex p23.

Umm, before you point out what I'm "misquoting", be sure you're understanding what I'm talking about. I didn't quote Descent of Angels at all. I quoted Skies of Blood, under the Stormraven, on page 38.

Leo_the_Rat wrote:That is the entirety of the rule. Descent of Angels applies only to Deep Striking and nothing else.

And a unit disembarking using Skies of Blood is deployed as if Deep Striking.

Leo_the_Rat wrote: You can try to use fluff to make your case but fluff does not equal a rule.

. . .

Leo_the_Rat wrote: Even if that were the case all of the units Deep Striking would have to have the DoA rule for it to work since the rule specifically says that if they don't have the rule then they use the normal rules for Deep Striking.

However, the entire unit is represented by 1 model when Deep Striking. The 1 model is placed, then scatters. Then the others are placed around it. Do you roll for every single model being placed around the first one? Or just the first one? Skies of Blood even points out that "models" may use Descent of Angels, so the fact that his unit doesn't have it doesn't seem to matter, I don't think.

The first model I am placing has the Descent of Angels rule and is Jump Infantry. Not only that, but he is Deep Striking. Once he is placed, using the Deep Strike rules, I follow the rest of the Deep Strike rule and place the other models around him.

If you could point me to a rule that has been broken, I'll gladly look at it.

First off you deploy "as if deep striking" so you are not deep striking. The rule is there to tell you how to set your pieces on the board not how they are arriving on the board. They are already on the board in the same way that any other unit in a transport is on the board that is they are not coming in from reserves. When you Deep Strike then you are coming in from reserves. Again "as if" =/= actually doing the same act.
Second if you want to differentiate your lead piece from the rest of the unit then the unit can not use his DoA rule since the second part of your unit doesn't have DoA and the rule specifically says that if a unit doesn't have it then you can't use it. You can't have it both ways either it is a unit without the DoA rule or you have 2 seperate units one who does and the other that doesn't. If you choose the latter then you have violated the rule that says only one unit per transport (ignoring whether or not you have a dreadnaught since it is allowed to be on the Stormraven with another unit).
Jump Infantry has nothing to do with anything in this instance. Your unit doesn't have DoA so it can not use it. You've also said in your opening scenerio that the rest of the unit doesn't have jump packs so how are they "deep striking" in the first place?

"As if Deep Striking" means for all purposes, unless otherwise specified. So DoA should work fine with Skies of Blood.

However, the entire unit is represented by 1 model when Deep Striking. The 1 model is placed, then scatters. Then the others are placed around it. Do you roll for every single model being placed around the first one? Or just the first one? Skies of Blood even points out that "models" may use Descent of Angels, so the fact that his unit doesn't have it doesn't seem to matter, I don't think.

I can't grant this one. The whole unit is not equipped with Jump Packs, so DoA will not apply if it's mixed.

Leo_the_Rat wrote:First off you deploy "as if deep striking" so you are not deep striking the rule is there to tell you how to set your pieces on the board not how they are arriving on the board. They are already on the board in the same way that any other unit in a transport is on the board that is they are not coming in from reserves. When you Deep Strike then you are coming in from reserves. Again "as if" =/= actually doing the same act.

So, if you were a new player and didn't have any idea what it meant to "deploy as if Deep Striking", where would you go to look? You wouldn't follow the Deep Strike rules? If this is what you're saying, then it shouldn't matter if I have jump packs or not. You're saying that since I am deploying "as if Deep Striking", I don't get to use Descent of Angels anyway, because I am not actually Deep Striking.

This is completely untrue, as I am given specific permission to use Descent of Angels when deploying from the Stormraven.

Leo_the_Rat wrote:Second if you want to differentiate your lead piece from the rest of the unit then the unit can not use his DoA rule since the second part of your unit doesn't have DoA and the rule specifically says that if a unit doesn't have it then you can't use it.

Where are you getting this from? All it says are "other untis that arrive by Deep Strike do so using the normal rules." I'm not using anything but the normal rules. I have not deviated from the normal rules one bit. I am told to set down 1 model from the unit. I do that - the model has the Descent of Angels special rule and it is a Jump Infantry model. So, following ALL rules from the Codex and the rulebook, I scatter 1D6" less when deploying from the Stormraven. When that is complete, the rest of my unit deploys using the normal rules - which is simply surrounding the first model that was deployed. I didn't skip a step, I didn't make anything up, I didn't apply anything special to anyone that they didn't already have .

Leo_the_Rat wrote:You can't have it both ways either it is a unit without the DoA rule or you have 2 seperate units one who does and the other that doesn't.

Wrong. Descent of Angels is not a USR that is lost when the IC joins a unit. The unit doesn't have it because the rule doesn't state that they do, but Astorath doesn't lose it either.

Leo_the_Rat wrote:If you choose the latter then you have violated the rule that says only one unit per transport (ignoring whether or not you have a dreadnaught since it is allowed to be on the Stormraven with another unit).

You're starting to ramble here.

I have followed every rule to the letter. I have not broken any rules. I have not assumed anything. I have followed each step.

1. I can deploy "as if Deep Striking" and use "Descent of Angels" because it states that models with Jump Packs may use it.
2. I then go to the Deep Strike rules to find out you place 1 model.
3. I place Astorath using the Descent of Angels + Deep Strike rules, as allowed by Skies of Blood.
4. I then use the normal Deep Strike rules and place the other models around him.

What rule have I broken?

At step 3.

Descent of Angels requires the unit to be equipped with Jump Packs. Astorath is not the entire unit. While he is the first model placed, the entire unit is still Deep Striking. If you Mishap with him, does he alone roll on the table? No, the whole unit suffers the consequences. Similarly, the whole unit will have to have jump packs to benefit from DoA.

2 questions on this...

1) how are you legally attaching a jump pack ic to a unit without jump packs?

2) if you cannot deep strike without the jump packs in the 1st place, how can you use an ability like that?

Just browsing and came across this thread, and am getting confused. :-P

Draconicwraith wrote:2 questions on this...

1) how are you legally attaching a jump pack ic to a unit without jump packs?

2) if you cannot deep strike without the jump packs in the 1st place, how can you use an ability like that?

Just browsing and came across this thread, and am getting confused. :-P

1) Simply because you can, honestly there is no rule against it and it's a fairly "common" thing

2) it's an ability granted by the stormraven skies of blood

Mannahnin wrote:At step 3.

Descent of Angels requires the unit to be equipped with Jump Packs. Astorath is not the entire unit. While he is the first model placed, the entire unit is still Deep Striking. If you Mishap with him, does he alone roll on the table? No, the whole unit suffers the consequences. Similarly, the whole unit will have to have jump packs to benefit from DoA.

Conversly, if you have a unit of terminators teleporting onto a Beacon, and 2 of the terminators are outside the 6" bubble, do those two in particular scatter? No - they are treated as a unit, being placed around where the first model lands.

You're right, Astorath is not the entire unit - but Descent of Angels does not apply to the rest of the unit. You're not scattering 10 models - you're scattering 1 that represents where the unit will land.

You say that I am breaking a rule at Step 3. How? I am told to place 1 model, not the entire unit. In fact, the Deep Strike rules don't mention the unit until it is time to place them around the 1 model that it does mention.

Where I see it possibly breaking down (and maybe this is what you're saying) is that Astorath has ceased to be a unit while he's with his attached squad and the DoA rules say "Blood Angels unit with this rule. . .". While you are actually only Deep Striking a model, it is the unit that is being Deep-Struck. So, having permission for a model to use Descent of Angels is fine, but I'm not just Deep striking 1 model (even though the mechanics require you to) - I am deep-striking a unit.

However, the question is, what constitutes "A Blood Angel unit"?

If you have a unit with 1 meltagunner in it, do you not have a squad "equipped with a meltagun"? To say no is false. You have a squad equipped with a meltagun. Just because all 10 models do not carry one does not mean the squad is not equipped with a meltagun.

Similarly, "a blood angels unit with this rule" - when Astorath joins the unit, he does not lose the rule. It becomes an entirely new unit. 10 models do not have the rule, 1 does. Hence, it is still a "Blood Angel unit with this rule", is it not?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
FWIW, I won't be using this in game because of my uncertainty about its legality. Any time something is uncertain, I default to the least advantageous position. Now it is more of an intriguing discussion than an actual rules situation.

When you attached Astorath to the DC they became 1 unit did they not?

I think it would work similar to their movement.

Astorath has a JP he can move 12" however as a unit they must only move 6" (the slowest) In this case it's not a USR, but more as how the unit is "equipped"

DoA will only scatter 1D6
Non DoA will scatter 2D6

So the unit will scatter 2D6 beings some lack the extra ability

Dear God, if you have to dissect the english language and reassemble it in a different manner in order to prove your point, you don't have a point worth making. For the record, if somebody tried to pull this shady crap of 'using the one model with a jump pack to guide in, and then the rest of the guys with no packs just HAPPEN to be able to be guided as well', that would be the last time I play that person. You know exactly why the rules stipulate that you need Jump Packs to do that, and trying to take ONE independent character to overrule that is obnoxious.

I think you'll have extreme difficulty convincing anyone that having a single model in a unit of 11 with a special rule is enough for that unit to qualify as a unit with that special rule.

Decent of Angels says "Units with this rule can...", and I'm pretty sure no one will buy that adding an IC with the rule to a unit will qualify it as a unit with Decent of Angels.

Puma - the rules for DoA talk about the *unit* needing the rule in order for it to work - and the unit doesnt have DoA, only one model does.

Puma- I apologize for some of the discussion I had been up a while and I did not thoroughly read the rules for the Storm Raven. So, yes a unit with jump packs can make a DoA landing in the situation you described if it is equipped with jump packs. In your specific scenerio your unit does not have jump packs only some of them do so DoA is not applicable.

Darkjediben wrote:Dear God, if you have to dissect the english language and reassemble it in a different manner in order to prove your point, you don't have a point worth making. For the record, if somebody tried to pull this shady crap of 'using the one model with a jump pack to guide in, and then the rest of the guys with no packs just HAPPEN to be able to be guided as well', that would be the last time I play that person. You know exactly why the rules stipulate that you need Jump Packs to do that, and trying to take ONE independent character to overrule that is obnoxious.

You really should calm down. I had already pointed out that I wasn't going to use it in game. I actually feel similarly to you - if I have to infer meaning, create rules that aren't there or rework sentences to find hidden meaning, then I am doing too much work in figuring out the rule. Hence, why I default to not using it.

Secondly, I didn't take Astorath so I could do this. I take him because I can fit in him a Stormraven with 10 DC. He can be a chaplain if I need him to be, or he can go wreck a vehicle if I need him to. Not only that, but it helps my MSU's succumb to the Red Thirst, giving half of my army Fearless.

I was simply asking because I have him in the army, and if it ever came up, I was curious if it was legal or not. You shouldn't take the stance that everyone here is trying to bend the rules - that is not always (if hardly ever) the case.

Chrysis wrote:Decent of Angels says "Units with this rule can...", and I'm pretty sure no one will buy that adding an IC with the rule to a unit will qualify it as a unit with Decent of Angels.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Puma - the rules for DoA talk about the *unit* needing the rule in order for it to work - and the unit doesnt have DoA, only one model does.

Sort of like how the entire unit needs to have Stealth in order to gain the bonus? Or how the entire unit needs to have defensive grenades in order for them to be a "Unit equipped with DGs"?

Honestly there is no good precedent for what to do if some models in a unit have a special rule and others don't. GW's ruling have been across the board ranging from:
1) they all get it (Stealth)
2) only those models that have it, get it (Power from Pain, great now we have mixed fearless units...)
2) they all lose it (Deep Strike)

It's gonna be one of those things I'd ask a judge beforehand (and be prepared for them to rule against you). I'd let you do it simply because I find the thought of 10 Death Company hanging onto Astaroth while he steers them to a safe landing to be rather amusing.

There's really no need to make things personal, thanks. -Mannahnin

Bugs - you do realise that the Stealth USR is written quite, quite differently to this? Ditto defensive grenades

nosferatu1001 wrote:Bugs - you do realise that the Stealth USR is written quite, quite differently to this? Ditto defensive grenades

I assume you're referring to the use of the word "All" in the stealth rule, which really has no effect on the meaning of the rule:

All of the unit's cover saves are improved by +1.
vs
The unit's cover saves are improved by +1.

In either case the rule functions at the unit level, not the model level. Either a unit has Stealth or a unit does not have Stealth. Does every model in the unit need to have the Stealth rule in order for the unit to have Stealth?


Likewise with DoA would it make a difference if it read:
A Blood Angels unit with this special rule can re-roll failed blah blah blah...Also, it scatter D6" less (GW's terrible proofreading not mine)
vs
A Blood Angels unit with this special rule can re-roll all failed blah blah blah...Also, it always scatters D6" less

If those don't suit you try the Rage rule. Does every model need to have Rage for the unit to count as having it?

All I'm trying to say is that it's not always as cut and dry as "if all models in a unit don't have the rule, then the unit doesn't have that rule"
But like I said before, it's gonna be one of those things I'd ask a judge beforehand (and be prepared for them to rule against you).

Reread the rule, and the rulebook FAQ. The rest of the unit does NOT have Stealth, they just have the benefits of it. Subtle difference.

This is the type of deal that might be argued to be technically legal, but its 110% cheesey to do, and would result in a roll off 90% of the time

Maybe Astorath carries each marine down one by one