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Not sure if this was brought up before, since seeing senseless personal bickering makes me scroll through posts rather fast, but isn't the one model placed just a marker? What I mean is, isn't the whole squad deepstriking simultaneously, and in this case Astaroth would be the marker for the center of the squad for purposes of deploying the squad.

Also, as to the "as if (doing something)", wasn't that FAQ'ed for the purposes of counter attack + furious charge that, in that case at least, "as if" does not grant the same benefits of the action being simulated?

So, I'd say no for Astaroth giving everyone DoA.

Raythor wrote:

So, I'd say no for Astaroth giving everyone DoA.

This wasn't the original question. It has nothing to do with Astorath conferring the special rule (he can't do that), but the placement of the model. It is about whether or not placing Astorath, a model equipped with a jump pack (very specific permission is granted by Skies of Blood here), using DoA was legal.

I'm still torn - but like I said, I wouldn't use it simply because of the uncertainty clouding the answer.

Just because you are using the model with the JP as the marker for the deepstriking unit does not mean you can use DOA. You could use any of the models in the unit as the marker. The unit is deepstriking, therfore follows all rules for that unit deepstriking regardless of which model you choose to use as the marker.

puma713 wrote:

Raythor wrote:

So, I'd say no for Astaroth giving everyone DoA.

This wasn't the original question. It has nothing to do with Astorath conferring the special rule (he can't do that), but the placement of the model. It is about whether or not placing Astorath, a model equipped with a jump pack (very specific permission is granted by Skies of Blood here), using DoA was legal.

I'm still torn - but like I said, I wouldn't use it simply because of the uncertainty clouding the answer.

You left out the main part of what he said though, the model you placed is just any model in the unit, not a specific model (essentially, for all intents and purposes it's not Astorath you're placing) rather a marker. The unit deepstrikes together and the unit does not have DoA.

At least that's my interpretation.

Not only would that be impractical in the middle of a war zone and considering that the ship is speeding by while the passengers jump out,it would also seriously piss of Astorath.

If Astorath chooses to do this,he gains +2 STR nad ATT while charging,does not stack with FC.

puma713 wrote:
I have followed every rule to the letter. I have not broken any rules. I have not assumed anything. I have followed each step.

1. I can deploy "as if Deep Striking" and use "Descent of Angels" because it states that models with Jump Packs may use it.
2. I then go to the Deep Strike rules to find out you place 1 model.
3. I place Astorath using the Descent of Angels + Deep Strike rules, as allowed by Skies of Blood.
4. I then use the normal Deep Strike rules and place the other models around him.

What rule have I broken?

I think you are missing a few steps.

1. Deploy as if deep striking.
2. Place one model. It should not matter which, but for the sake of your argument- Astorath.
3. Determine if Descent of Angels applies.
4. Roll for scatter
5. Place models.

The problem with the argument lies at step 3, at which point there are three plausible interpretations.

1- As you assert; Astorath DoA's, the rest of the unit follows him.

2- As the majority asserts; the unit cannot DoA, therefore the unit, including Astorath, rolls scatter as normal.

3- Plausibility glossed over so far; the separate elements scatter differently, roll DoA for Astoroth, roll normal scatter for the unit, and if they do not land w/in 2" of each other Astoroth has moved out of coherency and is no longer in the unit.


The correct interpretation cannot be #3- It makes some logical sense, and would be interesting, but there is no rules support for making separate scatter rolls unless you are intentionally separating the unit during disembarkation.

The correct interpretation cannot be #1- DoA grants modified scatter rules to the unit; Unless you can logically assert that Astoroth is the unit, the unit does not have DoA. Unless a FAQ comes out with a special dispensation (e.g. scouts/fearless) that makes it so, a single DoA model does not grant the unit the ability. Units do not (normally) gain the benefit of rules they don't have.


Occams Razor leaves me with the conclusion that, barring a fourth plausibility that I missed, the correct interpretation must be #2



Automatically Appended Next Post:

puma713 wrote:

This wasn't the original question. It has nothing to do with Astorath conferring the special rule (he can't do that), but the placement of the model. It is about whether or not placing Astorath, a model equipped with a jump pack (very specific permission is granted by Skies of Blood here), using DoA was legal.

I'm still torn - but like I said, I wouldn't use it simply because of the uncertainty clouding the answer.

For the sake of further clarification: DoA specifically confers its bonus to units, not models.

DoA parsing process-
Does the unit have DoA? No.
Do units without DoA gain the benefit of DoA? No.
Is the model being placed part of a unit without the benefit of DoA? Yes.

Does the model gain the benefit of DoA? No.

Your unit doesn't have Jump Packs, or the DoA special rule. therefore your IC loses all benefit of said special rule while attached to the squad. It really is that simple. Just because you place him as the marker for dropping in does not suddenly grant any special rules or wargear to a unit without them.

While I appreciate everyone's input, I have conceded that I won't be using it, and that I can see where the other side is coming from and why they feel the way they do. I know that YMDC is not really used to this stance, but there you have it.

It does make an interesting question - especially since Skies of Blood gives "models" specific permission to use Descent of Angels. So, the question would need to be asked, does the Skies of Blood rule (giving "models with jump packs"), being more specific, override the restriction of Descent of Angels. Astorath is one model in a unit that is deep striking. Astorath is a model with a jump pack. He (as a model with a jump pack) is given permission to use Descent of Angels. The Deep Strike rules say "place a model", not "place a unit". Everyone keeps bringing up the fact that you're deep-striking a unit (which is true), however the rules never point to a unit. They always say "model". Place a "model" from the unit. So, I am placing a "model", one with a "jump pack", that is given specific permission via "Skies of Blood" to use "Descent of Angels".

To make it more clear where I have been coming from.

Also, there is a similar thread here, if you'd like to discuss the mechanics of IC non-USR special rules + a unit without them.

While Skies of Blood may give individual models permission to use Descent of Angels, Descent of Angels only does anything if the unit has the rule.

Essentially the model has permission to invoke the rule. It looks at the benefits it can get when it does and none apply because they all say "The unit with this rule" and one model within a unit isn't a unit with the rule.

Much like Fleet doesn't override assault restrictions after disembarking, the permission from Skies of Blood won't override the fact that Descent of Angels only gives benefits to units.

The DS rules only use the model as a marker - it isnt actually the unit at that point.

I ahve a related question,would Dante's Tactical Prescision be of use here?

Another quick question related is if the Stormraven has a Locator Beacon all units deep striking within 6" doesn't scatter. Can this apply for unit coming out of the vehicle?

Yes,read the FAQ for INAT(top of the page).

Please, read the Tenets of YMDC. It is stickied on top of the forum.

Alsothisisreallyaanoying.