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Here's a question for all you Dakkites, although it's geared more towards the veteran players out there.

Do you still benefit from reading tactics forums, either here or elsewhere? Are there certain blogs that you follow because you recieve a real benefit from them?

Here's my experience. Having played 40k since the start of 5th edition, and none at all of 4th or prior, I can say that I'm intimately familiar with the rules system. For the past 3ish years that 5th has been out, I've played almost exclusively Orks. I probably have close to, if not more than, 200 games under my belt with my Orks. I use many of the same units regularly, owning about 3000 points and playing games of all points levels. I own and have read through every singe Codex multiple times, and have played games against every army (albeit not every "archtype" build). Long story short, I know what everything does.

I find that I don't really get much benefit at all from reading tactics advice that other people post. There was a while where I read through every single Batrep that DashofPepper posted, and I definitely learned a lot from Dash in terms of tactics, and list design (mainly the technical, rather than general, points of the 3 Battlewagon 2500 list). Since then, however, I have played countless games, learning my army inside and out, and generally establishing my own tactics and knowledge base. I feel that I am at a point where I don't have anything left to learn from other players, but merely from actual game experience.

So Dakka, how do you feel about this? Do you still learn from tactics forums or blogs, or do you really only learn from practice and first hand experience using different lists and playing different opponents.

/discuss

“By three methods we may learn wisdom: First, by reflection, which is noblest; Second, by imitation, which is easiest; and third by experience, which is the bitterest.” – Confucius

I prefer the first two to the third in most activities, so I still read the batreps, still read the tactics blogs, still lurk here in my free time. Particularly since I can't get to game as often as I might like lately.

You can always benefit from reading peoples' tactical opinions (especially when the meta shifts). They may not be very useful all the time, but occasionally they may bring some sort of new perspective.

I generally come here for ideas. For example, deathwing terminator squad composition and kan wall loadout.
Neither of which I was familiar with when I first began the army. Did I get good advice? No, lol. In fact, after playing the lists that people suggested, I learned more about how bad it was than how good it was. But hey, it DID give me a place to start. Right or wrong [the advice from dakka], as long as you're learning about the strengths and weaknesses of your army, then you're getting something.
Nowadays I just come here for the lol-posts like "Hey guys, how do I beat X with my Ward Knights?" or "My space wolves can't beat Y!! I'm getting steamrolled HALP!"

I've learned enough to know that I desire to keep learning.
I find a lot of the advice to be gak, a fair amount to be regurgitated, and a third section to contain kernels of brilliance - I consider it well worth wading through the other two to find the third.

I also believe the game of 40k evolves with every codex and rules change, so that the process of learning is functionally going to continue until they stop producing new rules.

I think the forum can be quite helpful. While I don't believe posting things like "why do I keep losing with space wolves/grey knights I bought them to win" are very interesting due to their being hundreds of threads about this, however I do always enjoy reading how people are managing to make armies like Tau, Eldar, Tyranids place in Tournaments without cheesing out. I think there is always something you can learn from your peers mistakes and successes.

I posted a Topic about Summoned Daemons for Chaos, but as I said in it, I already use them, so opinions on Dakka haven't changed anything. All I really learned regarding my Chaos is termicide and "the list", which I've only used once because it drains the fun out of my opponent's game. I find myself giving advice often when Chaos threads pop up.

My starting Black Templars however, I'm learning from there because even though Chaos and Imperials are the same, they are also very different.

For the most part I only benefit when I post a topic seeking information, other wise I don't really learn. "Guys, how do you beat Grey Knights/Dark Eldar/Space Wolves with x, y, and z? PS- I'm not willing to change my list."

I still pick up stuff...new ideas that I haven't thought about before or why a certain piece of wargear works. Just some nifty tricks. Don't always use the ideas that people have, but it can also help you prepare for a certain type of army that I don't see alot.

I still love to read tactics on all the armies, specially the ones that I play against in our group. Ive played since 3rd edition on and off and since 5th (I bought my own house shortly after it was launched and finally had my own place to play) Ive been playing alot. I know Orks pretty well, but I still get a curve ball every now and then, and Id be lying if I said I know alot about other armies. So yea, I still read the tactics Forum often, and I learn things from it.

I'm by no means a vet player, but if I was I'd still come to the Tactics forum. No matter how much you know, there's always something new to learn.

I'm an old hand at painting, but still a tabletop newbie, and I find I get a lot of value out of the tactics forum.
Also with the price of kits & figures nowadays it's nice to know if they are useless and will only be fielded once before buying them!

I think even veteran players can always learn something new, or at the very least see a given tactical situation through fresh eyes. I don't think it ever really hurts to listen to another perspective on the rules, since each of us tend to get locked into a certain mode of playing. Also, consider that new codexes come out every few months, so the need to stay refreshed on your tactics, and become versed on the tactics of enemy armies, is renewed periodically. Tactics boards, tactica articles at batreps make you a more three dimensional player, in my opinion.

Thor665 wrote:I find a lot of the advice to be gak, a fair amount to be regurgitated, and a third section to contain kernels of brilliance - I consider it well worth wading through the other two to find the third.

I also believe the game of 40k evolves with every codex and rules change, so that the process of learning is functionally going to continue until they stop producing new rules.

This pretty much sums it up.

When you stop reading the tactics section is when you start resting on your laurels. Once you do that, its only a matter of time before some snot-nosed kid comes by and smacks you back into improving your game by beating the tar out of you.

I gotta say, I learn so much more reading Battle Reports than reading things in the tactics section, which I still look over for juicy morsels. Some things look nasty on paper (Mathahmmer) but reading Battle Reports really shows you how things work when not in a vacuum. I don't care what the math is, my friend seems to fail EVERY terminator save, while I have a great reputation for never scattering. Ever. I like seeing things in action to see how things really go down.

Thor665 wrote:
I find a lot of the advice to be gak, a fair amount to be regurgitated, and a third section to contain kernels of brilliance - I consider it well worth wading through the other two to find the third.

Someone already wrote my response.

you're never done learning.

I like reading tactics and learn somethign new every day. granted I don't learn new things about my main army orks. but abotu how other people can use thier armies and it helps me be better prepared to lead my boyz to victory. and recently as I am starting to use my space marines mroe I'm learning more abotu all thier chapters. and how differrent they really are tactically. currently I'm playingg as vanilla and debating playing as dark angels (full ss/th termie army)

SOFDC wrote:“By three methods we may learn wisdom: First, by reflection, which is noblest; Second, by imitation, which is easiest; and third by experience, which is the bitterest.” – Confucius

I prefer the first two to the third in most activities, so I still read the batreps, still read the tactics blogs, still lurk here in my free time. Particularly since I can't get to game as often as I might like lately.

/close thread. The wisdom of Confucius sums up all the responses.

I find tactical poll threads to be really unhelpful, so I habitually boycott them. I find that the most popular choices aren't always the best, although it's occasionally interesting to see what people think is good.

I actually really like the threads where somebody asks for a solution to a weird problem and doesn't want to change his list. It gets me thinking outside the box, kind of like those chess puzzles they used to publish in the newspaper where you have to work with what you've got to find how to win.

It's disappointing that so much of the "tactical" advice given to questions in the tactics forum is actually list-building advice. I mean, a lot of the threads in this forum are list-building questions, and sometimes the answer is about swapping units in and out, and I think that's fine. But sometimes even tactical questions get treated like list-building questions, as if swapping particular units into a list is the answer to every problem. (I'm probably guilty of this too.)

I read the tactics forum every day and, although I skip most threads, I find at least one or two good ideas here each week. Some things I even put in my own notes for later use.

Flavius Infernus wrote:I find tactical poll threads to be really unhelpful, so I habitually boycott them. I find that the most popular choices aren't always the best, although it's occasionally interesting to see what people think is good.

I actually really like the threads where somebody asks for a solution to a weird problem and doesn't want to change his list. It gets me thinking outside the box, kind of like those chess puzzles they used to publish in the newspaper where you have to work with what you've got to find how to win.

It's disappointing that so much of the "tactical" advice given to questions in the tactics forum is actually list-building advice. I mean, a lot of the threads in this forum are list-building questions, and sometimes the answer is about swapping units in and out, and I think that's fine. But sometimes even tactical questions get treated like list-building questions, as if swapping particular units into a list is the answer to every problem. (I'm probably guilty of this too.)

I read the tactics forum every day and, although I skip most threads, I find at least one or two good ideas here each week. Some things I even put in my own notes for later use.

+1000, especially the bolded bit

Flavius Infernus wrote:I find tactical poll threads to be really unhelpful, so I habitually boycott them. I find that the most popular choices aren't always the best, although it's occasionally interesting to see what people think is good.

I actually really like the threads where somebody asks for a solution to a weird problem and doesn't want to change his list. It gets me thinking outside the box, kind of like those chess puzzles they used to publish in the newspaper where you have to work with what you've got to find how to win.

It's disappointing that so much of the "tactical" advice given to questions in the tactics forum is actually list-building advice. I mean, a lot of the threads in this forum are list-building questions, and sometimes the answer is about swapping units in and out, and I think that's fine. But sometimes even tactical questions get treated like list-building questions, as if swapping particular units into a list is the answer to every problem. (I'm probably guilty of this too.)

I read the tactics forum every day and, although I skip most threads, I find at least one or two good ideas here each week. Some things I even put in my own notes for later use.

THEY STILL PUBLISH THOSE CHESS PUZZLES!! And you are absolutely right. In photography we have "gear heads," people who buy every new thing because they think it will make them a better photographer. The worst part is that constantly buying new stuff actually takes away from learning how to use anything to take good pictures. We have the same thing in Warhammer.

"Unit Heads" are a product of our materialist culture!

For the most part: no. The quality of the tactics advice here on Dakka has degenerated. This use to be the unquestionably best place on the internet for winning tactics and list advice.

Since the site's popularity has exploded, the amount of bad or less than great advice has grown proportionately. A lot of the veteran guys tried to fight the tide but gave up as it was a hopeless battle.

You can still find some gems in here if you know who to listen to, or where to look. But for the most part, unless you are very new to the game, the advice here is not very good anymore.

Still a nice place to have a chat about the game, but often the advice here is just downright bad.

The best thing to do is identify who gives good advice and talk to those individuals privately. That, and personal experience will be your best guides.

I don't know about learning any gangbuster tactics that change the way I play the game, but for example I read a transport tactica recently that I found very interesting. I've been playing for about 18 years now and I still learn things. Different people play the game in different ways, and you learn new little tricks: lots of A then B vs. B then A kinds of things.

One thing that really chaps my ass about the Tactics forum is the "Is _____ in a _____ a good tactic?". Throwing a unit in a transport isn't a tactic. Spamming a particular unit isn't a tactic. Tactics is about *how* you use units.

Legoburner! Yakface! Hello up there

Start a tactics feature with articles written by these veterans and give them the power to moderate their own discussions.

You could start it out slowly and pick someone you trust. Just do one at a time.

This has been really quite interesting, hearing the opinions of so many, and especially those from a few members (such as Reecius) whom I have developed a great deal of respect for.

I think at this point, I should clarify a bit more on my own experiences. It's not that I feel that I have nothing else to learn. My problem with reading Tacticas is that I gain, I think, much more benefit from experiences on the tabletop than from the words of others. It's one thing to read a new codex and listen to what others say about it, and actually play against it.

For instance, you'll hear everyone telling you about how Dark Eldar are the most mobile army in the game, but you will never truly understand it until you find yourself centered on the table with Raiders making a complete circle around your army, like a pack of sharks closing in for the kill. What a tactica article can never teach you is how to fight yourself out of this kind of situation, trading blow for blow, and still remaining effective while your army dwindles in size.

Great discussion so far guys. Let's hear some more opinions!

Well, I'm certainly a vet player. Nevertheless, I like reading the boards on army lists and tactics here at dakka. New lists attract me most; sometimes you can find a trend like an army based on Purifiers. New tactics or tactical gimmicks are also what I'm interested. So yeah, my answer is: yes, I do.

I find the most useful thing isn't standard advice. At this point, if you're a vet, you already know what that standard advice is or will be. What I find the most useful are the arguments that occasionally occur about specific strategies or situations. Examples include the old discussion about orks in the tier list, power fist or not discussion, demons in the tier list, etc.

The most growth comes from situations that challenge your normal way of thinking. The arguments often conclude with no necessarily correct answer, but that's just fine because it forces you to think about it.

Generally speaking, though, I feel like this edition is played out. People already know mostly what works and what doesn't. THe typical odd stuff that does work tends to be difficult to use.

Reecius wrote:For the most part: no. The quality of the tactics advice here on Dakka has degenerated. This use to be the unquestionably best place on the internet for winning tactics and list advice.

Since the site's popularity has exploded, the amount of bad or less than great advice has grown proportionately. A lot of the veteran guys tried to fight the tide but gave up as it was a hopeless battle.

You can still find some gems in here if you know who to listen to, or where to look. But for the most part, unless you are very new to the game, the advice here is not very good anymore.

Still a nice place to have a chat about the game, but often the advice here is just downright bad.

The best thing to do is identify who gives good advice and talk to those individuals privately. That, and personal experience will be your best guides.

I used to post alot of advice in Dakka, and then theres the tide of retardation from alot of players who just paperhammer.

The list include, but is not limited to:

-Comparing Tac Sqauds to Strike Squads when both have different roles.
-Suggesting tailored units for the list just to beat a single list it has trouble from. (i.e. suggesting to bring lots of flamers against genestealers, when you can just stay inside cover and shoot)
-Suggesting really absurd and impractical scenarios (Killing a landraider and beating the hammernators and null libby inside - why the hell would you do that?)
-Trying the MSU template on every army
-Suggesting lists that are only good in paper but never in practice (triple Blood Crusher Spam + fateweaver)
-Suggesting a 1 dimensional solution to a 3 dimensional problem (Suggest defeating necrons with triple monoliths by phasing them out- but never advicing how and why, specifically)
-Arguing which landraiders are the best when each has a very specific role.
-Suggesting an assault cannon is a better weapon over the lascannon when beating AV14 simply because mathhammer says it has a higher probability (4% doesnt mean dick; this grinds the gak out of my gears)
-Rock-Paper-Scissor argument (Unit X is useless because Unit Y defeats it)

The overall quality of the advice here has fallen with the site's increasing user base, and as such the site has gotten worse every year since .... hmm, I think I joined in 2002? Before Mauleed left anyway, somewhere during 3rd ed.

That having been said, Assault Cannons ARE better vs. AV 14 than lascannons. Just not by much and both are pretty bad at it.

What I find fascinating is the bitterness of some of the people posting here.
* the site has gotten worse every year since .... hmm, I think I joined in 2002
* I used to post alot of advice in Dakka, and then theres the tide of retardation from alot of players who just paperhammer.
* I feel like this edition is played out.
* The quality of the tactics advice here on Dakka has degenerated. This use to be the unquestionably best place on the internet for winning tactics and list advice.
* Nowadays I just come here for the lol-posts like "Hey guys, how do I beat X with my Ward Knights?"

To the Vets
My question to all those vets who are bitter about the forums, in particular about those who think dakka has declined, why don't you do something about it? It's easy to bitch about 'the state of affairs', its something else to help build the online 40k community and contribute. If it makes you unhappy enough to bitch about it, why not change it?

Even if people disagree with you -- such as to powerfist or not -- the discussion as a whole benifits the site for other who read it. When I debate people on these forums, I'm not trying to change the mind of the person I'm debating, I'm trying to teach all the other people reading the posts about my points. I'm sure you do the same.

Finally, there is always more than one way to do it. Just because you have found great luck and effect with a redeemer or MSU, does not mean its the only solution. A lot of vets (including myself) fall prey to this mentality on a regular basis. If we stopped and thought about that more often, perhaps a lot of our debates would not get so hot.

I don't remember it being that different back in 2005 (or even on EZ Board before that).

I remember that subjectively it *seemed* way more impressive because there were basically no other resources and because I'd only been playing for a few years and didn't know anything.

And one thing that has definitely changed a lot is that there used to be a huge number of threads where somebody would propose something tactically competitive, then a bunch of posters would bash the OP for being "cheesy" for having three falcons or whatever, then a bunch of other posters would come back and say "comp sux" and that would go on for a few days. I'm not sorry that that has gone away.

But I also remember the front page always had at least two or three "What Chaos Power should I Favor?" threads and a couple of threads bashing Mauleed for his cheesy 96-point las/plas squads. I feel like the quality of the bulk of the material hasn't changed that much.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

rdlb wrote:Legoburner! Yakface! Hello up there

Start a tactics feature with articles written by these veterans and give them the power to moderate their own discussions.

You could start it out slowly and pick someone you trust. Just do one at a time.

There is a sticky archive of especially good tactics threads that Manchu maintains at the top of this forum. There's a lot of really good information in there already.