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I recently got into 40k and have been playing Space Marines and loving it. As I decided which chapter to align myself with, I went with the Crimson Fists (something about being on the verge of extinction is appealing to me) and haven't looked back. However, looking through the vanilla SM codex, I've noticed that some of the other unique HQs have some ridiculous weapons/abilities/stats/wargear. I understand that the Fists lost a lot when their fortress monastery was destroyed, thus losing a lot of relics, and so I was wondering if there are any "official" rules that would disallow the use of say a captain from another chapter with my CF builds? I'm sure the fluff alone would most likely deny this but was wondering if anyone has done something like this before? Thanks in advance!

It's perfectly acceptable to repaint a Special Character and use him in whatever Chapter you want.

For Space Marines, it even specifically mentions doing so in the codex, at the start of the army list section.

So it does. That had to have been the only page in this entire codex that I did not read. Thank you for pointing this out... and for pointing out my failure to read the whole book lol!

solidbarton wrote:Thank you for pointing this out... and for pointing out my failure to read the whole book lol!

I like this!

I actually like to run Shrike in my Salamanders sometimes, all depends on the mood of the game.

I play Space Wolves but occasionally I like to run a Vulkan list using the same models. I re-arrange my squads a bit and put Vulkan on the table (who will soon be receiving a Space Wolves paintjob and some work to change his insignia), and it's all perfectly legal as long as I'm clear about what is what. Use the characters you want, and use the book that best fits your style of play. Just be clear about it with your opponent.

Actually that's not legal. You can only choose the headquarters units from within your own codex. So you can't run Vulcan in a space wolf army. If you're just talking about using a Vulcan figure in your army as something else then, of course you can do that.

Leo_the_Rat wrote:Actually that's not legal. You can only choose the headquarters units from within your own codex. So you can't run Vulcan in a space wolf army. If you're just talking about using a Vulcan figure in your army as something else then, of course you can do that.

He's saying that he's running his SW army as a vanilla SM army with Vulcan.

The legality of this is somewhat questionable, but typically accepted.

Personally, I frown on it (I'm not allowed to call my Eldar Orks, am I?), but will allow it, unless it's just another unpainted SM army playing the flavor of the month.

Aldarionn wrote: I re-arrange my squads a bit and put Vulkan on the table (who will soon be receiving a Space Wolves paintjob and some work to change his insignia), and it's all perfectly legal as long as I'm clear about what is what.

If you're still running them as Space Wolves with Vulkan leading them, that's not legal.

If you mean that you re-arrange them and use the Codex: Space Marines rules for them... well, that's not technically a problem, but if they're painted as Space Wolves you will find that some players aren't a fan of the idea.

If I played someone who tried to claim that they were going to run a special character from another army but, leave their army as say space wolves like the guy above. I wouldn't allow it. If someone wanted to run say shrike from the raven guard in a ultra marines army. As the character itself. But, wanted him to have a squad accompany him being from the raven guard chapter. Id allow that. Being as say an envoy from one chapter to another. (Read Ghram McNeil's Chapters Due) So long as their running shrike with his own squad from his own chapter I'm ok with it.

Not sure I"d allow it. You take a CODEX for it's strenghs you also have to go with the weaknesses for game balance. Otherwise you'd have to allow me to take Eldrad with my Orks so Imy Lootas can reroll misses.

If you just want to take a SC from another DEX and use him as one in your DEX then I'd have no issues with that.

I've used Lysander painted up as my Crimson Fist 1st Company Captain (and used Lysanders rules too)

Regardless of the chapter, as long as everything is coming out of the same codex, it's all good.

insaniak wrote:

Aldarionn wrote: I re-arrange my squads a bit and put Vulkan on the table (who will soon be receiving a Space Wolves paintjob and some work to change his insignia), and it's all perfectly legal as long as I'm clear about what is what.

If you're still running them as Space Wolves with Vulkan leading them, that's not legal.

If you mean that you re-arrange them and use the Codex: Space Marines rules for them... well, that's not technically a problem, but if they're painted as Space Wolves you will find that some players aren't a fan of the idea.

Never seen the problem with this.
Space Wolves are a Space Marine chapter...why shouldn't they be able to use Codex: Space Marine? As long as you tell your opponant before the start of the game, of course.

Joey wrote:Space Wolves are a Space Marine chapter...why shouldn't they be able to use Codex: Space Marine? As long as you tell your opponant before the start of the game, of course.

If you grab everything out of C:SM that's fine. Just picking and choosing to mix is a bad idea.

I guess my original question pertained to my Crimson Fist army have Mephiston in it as a libby. I had the Mephiston army from when I used to run BA 10 years ago and sold everything but him, and how picked up the game again and was wondering if it would be legal to use him in my CF army.

marv335 wrote:

Joey wrote:Space Wolves are a Space Marine chapter...why shouldn't they be able to use Codex: Space Marine? As long as you tell your opponant before the start of the game, of course.

Regardless of the chapter, as long as everything is coming out of the same codex, it's all good.

These two points are Spot on. Paint does not matter.

Who would refuse to play against the Blood Angels Codex with models that had a blue, or black, or green, silver, or grey color scheme?

Who would refuse to play against the Space Marines Codex with models that had a Black, or Silver or Red color scheme?

solidbarton wrote:I guess my original question pertained to my Crimson Fist army have Mephiston in it as a libby. I had the Mephiston army from when I used to run BA 10 years ago and sold everything but him, and how picked up the game again and was wondering if it would be legal to use him in my CF army.

Using him as a libby would be fine (if confusing). Using him as Mephiston would not be.

solidbarton wrote:I guess my original question pertained to my Crimson Fist army have Mephiston in it as a libby. I had the Mephiston army from when I used to run BA 10 years ago and sold everything but him, and how picked up the game again and was wondering if it would be legal to use him in my CF army.

If you are using the rules for Mephiston, all of your other units should come from the Blood Angels Codex. (No matter how they are painted.)

If you are using the Mephiston model, but the rules for Tigirius (Or a Codex Space Marine Librarian), all of your other units should come from the Space Marine Codex. (No matter how they are painted.)

Ok, so there is a limit/constraint on using SC in another chapter then? I refer to in the C:SM p. 127. If I read it correctly, it says you can have named characters from another chapter fight along side your main army? Or you can integrate the model and rules into your main, you just have to rename him? I think I might be kind of confused by the wording.

solidbarton wrote:Ok, so there is a limit/constraint on using SC in another chapter then? I refer to in the C:SM p. 127. If I read it correctly, it says you can have named characters from another chapter fight along side your main army? Or you can integrate the model and rules into your main, you just have to rename him? I think I might be kind of confused by the wording.

That only applies to the SC in the C:SM book. You can use Marneus in your CF army, or in your White Scars army, but you can't use Dante in your Ultramarines army (provided you're using the C:SM book for the Ultramarine army).

Models are fine - rules are where people will say no.

rigeld2, thanks for the clarification. Will keep that in mind from now on!

Anyone who'd complain about using Special Char from the army codex of your army due to the paint color scheme needs to have a boot to the head. If its in your codex, its legal, if its not in your codex, its not.

Don't think anyone here is saying they won't allow a SC from C:SM to be used in an army list built out of C:SM. What I see are folks saying you can not use the Emporers' Champion from C:Black Templars or Dante from C:BA in an army list built using C:SM. I totally agree with not allowing that.

In regards to using a space wolf models to counts as another codex (vanilla, BA, BT, ect.)...assuming they are all WYSIWYG

insaniak wrote:If you mean that you re-arrange them and use the Codex: Space Marines rules for them... well, that's not technically a problem, but if they're painted as Space Wolves you will find that some players aren't a fan of the idea.

Kiryu Mk 3 wrote:If I played someone who tried to claim that they were going to run a special character from another army but, leave their army as say space wolves like the guy above. I wouldn't allow it.

Boss GreenNutz wrote:Not sure I"d allow it.

Again, assuming that all the models are WYSIWYG, how is this any different than a "vanilla" army that uses the Space Wolves Rules in one list and then uses the BA list in another by simply swapping out some units? I know a guy who started a Pre-Heresy Thousand Son's Army schemewise and currently uses them as count's as space wolves (heavy on the rune priests for example) but plans on adding a couple assault squads and a psychic dreadnought to later run them as a Blood Angel Army?

Do you have an issue here? If not, why? Why does it matter is one paints his SM grey with wolf pelts and the other paints it red with some glyphs? Again, assuming all is within the standards of WYSIWYG.

Sounds like more of a fluff issue than a specific rules issue?

If you could pick and mix, then you could put logan grimnar with Marneus calgar and get Marneus to reroll to hit and to wound.

I think the issue is using a unit from one codex and running it with a different codex. As long as I'm told about in advance, and it's a friendly game, I won't care too much. If you are using a BA army as a 'counts as SW' army, that's completely different, and I really would not have a problem with it.

Joey wrote:

insaniak wrote:

Aldarionn wrote: I re-arrange my squads a bit and put Vulkan on the table (who will soon be receiving a Space Wolves paintjob and some work to change his insignia), and it's all perfectly legal as long as I'm clear about what is what.

If you're still running them as Space Wolves with Vulkan leading them, that's not legal.

If you mean that you re-arrange them and use the Codex: Space Marines rules for them... well, that's not technically a problem, but if they're painted as Space Wolves you will find that some players aren't a fan of the idea.

Never seen the problem with this.
Space Wolves are a Space Marine chapter...why shouldn't they be able to use Codex: Space Marine? As long as you tell your opponant before the start of the game, of course.

I take Vulkan in a BA army with infernus pistols and metlaguns everywhere, take a gakload of fast rhinos and then have a 24" bubble of death when I load a squad with a meltagun into a rhino and blst it across the board. Each codex was designed as a seperate and balanced entity. The characters from a blood angel list should be in BA armies or counts as BA armies at the very least.
When you take characters from different codexes then you unbalance the armies, this creates broken and heavily exploitative rules that are difficult for anyone to deal with.

I like fun games and will play lists that are designed to mess me up but what's the point of playing a list that is plucked from the best of 5 spacer marines codexes just to try to win? I could take my Land raiders from BA and my terminators as troops from DA and have squads of 8 terminators deepstriking in a bunker.

liturgies of blood wrote:I take Vulkan in a BA army with infernus pistols and metlaguns everywhere, take a gakload of fast rhinos and then have a 24" bubble of death when I load a squad with a meltagun into a rhino and blst it across the board. Each codex was designed as a seperate and balanced entity. The characters from a blood angel list should be in BA armies or counts as BA armies at the very least.
When you take characters from different codexes then you unbalance the armies, this creates broken and heavily exploitative rules that are difficult for anyone to deal with.

I like fun games and will play lists that are designed to mess me up but what's the point of playing a list that is plucked from the best of 5 spacer marines codexes just to try to win? I could take my Land raiders from BA and my terminators as troops from DA and have squads of 8 terminators deepstriking in a bunker.

The post you quoted was talking about using a different codex entirely, not using parts from multiple codexes.

liturgies of blood wrote:

Joey wrote:

insaniak wrote:

Aldarionn wrote: I re-arrange my squads a bit and put Vulkan on the table (who will soon be receiving a Space Wolves paintjob and some work to change his insignia), and it's all perfectly legal as long as I'm clear about what is what.

If you're still running them as Space Wolves with Vulkan leading them, that's not legal.

If you mean that you re-arrange them and use the Codex: Space Marines rules for them... well, that's not technically a problem, but if they're painted as Space Wolves you will find that some players aren't a fan of the idea.

Never seen the problem with this.
Space Wolves are a Space Marine chapter...why shouldn't they be able to use Codex: Space Marine? As long as you tell your opponant before the start of the game, of course.

I take Vulkan in a BA army with infernus pistols and metlaguns everywhere, take a gakload of fast rhinos and then have a 24" bubble of death when I load a squad with a meltagun into a rhino and blst it across the board. Each codex was designed as a seperate and balanced entity. The characters from a blood angel list should be in BA armies or counts as BA armies at the very least.
When you take characters from different codexes then you unbalance the armies, this creates broken and heavily exploitative rules that are difficult for anyone to deal with.

I like fun games and will play lists that are designed to mess me up but what's the point of playing a list that is plucked from the best of 5 spacer marines codexes just to try to win? I could take my Land raiders from BA and my terminators as troops from DA and have squads of 8 terminators deepstriking in a bunker.

I didn't say "You can pick whatever rules you like from whatever codexes and that's grand". No one suggested that.

It's why mine are the DIY chapter Angelus Genericus with a color scheme that doesn't match any chapter.
By the time a new Black Templar codex comes out I'll be looking for a change from playing them as Blood Angels, and having a DIY chapter avoids the disconnect of using red marines for black templars.