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The Caetus Assault Ram has a Magna-Melta,which is large balst and melta.Where do I measure the melta range to?

The center of the blast, before you scatter.

Thanks.But would it not be after scatter,because it could scatter out of melta range?

Same as for measuring whether the target is in range at all. If it scatters outside, that's just the Dice Gods, the shot is still taken as normal. So the same for the Melta range.

Deadshot wrote:Thanks.But would it not be after scatter,because it could scatter out of melta range?

Follow the rules, and check range to the vehicles hull before placing the blast.

Could you clarify that please?I don't understand.

Blast weapons replace the step "roll to hit"
PRIOR to that step you pick a target, check LOS and check range.

Check range is, oddly enough, when you see if you are in half range.

Ah,I get it now.


Thanks to all of you.

Lots wrong in here.

Fire your Blast using all the normal Firing Procedures.

When you go to resolve the hit on a vehicle(i.e. roll for Armour penetration), you then follow the melta rules; if the vehicles hull is 1/2 or less the max range from the gun you roll 2d6. Where the Blast ended up does not matter.

It is the same way for the IG devil dog.

Nos; that is not correct, Blast replaces the entire firing procedure. Otherwise you could never auto-miss in the second step of Blast Firing(having checked range before placing the marker to begin with, then checking range again is unnecessary)

"Blast weapons do not roll to hit; instead...."

Show me where that is replacing steps 1 and 2, and youd be right. Yes, you can still auto miss, and the rules technically require you to measure twice. Been through this before....

It does tell you when to measure for range, it does not tell you to measure once more. It even refers to this procedure as checking if the target was in range. This is a change from regular shooting procedure, in addition to not rolling to hit. You are not allowed to measure twice, as you are not allowed to measure unless you are told to do so. And you are told to do so after placing the blast marker.

And, for the last time: see step 2, check range. What step is replaced by Blast? To hit, which is step 3

If you are NOT checking range at step 2 you have broken the rules.

You are not, because you are told to check them later. After you replaced the to hit step. The "instead of rolling to hit" quote does not relate to all following rules up to night fighting, but only to its paragraph and nothing else. After you replaced the to hit roll, you now have to check range, which is an explicit change to regular sequence.

That way it's amazingly more intuitive than checking range twice.

nosferatu1001 wrote:the rules technically require you to measure twice.

3 times.

once in Step 2, Once when placing the marker, and a final time when determining if the vehicle hit is in melta range.

While the melta rules themselves do not tell you to measure again, they also do not account for a shot scattering on to an ancillary target. If it is only in Step 2 that you are allowed to determine if a vehicle hit by a melta weapon suffers the extra D6 penetration, then no melta Blasts could ever use the melta rule on an ancillary hit, even if the scatter strikes itself, or another vehicle right in front of the gun.

Example: an IG Devil Dog(24" Melta, Blast weapon) Fires at an enemy Land raider, the LR is 11" away in the Check Range step, the marker hole is 14" away when placed(central placement to mitigate scatter). the Scatter die is rolled and it scatters onto an enemy predator that is 6" away from the Devil dog(although we would have no way of knowing that without measuring), by your assertions we are not allowed to measure to the vehicle hit by the melta weapon to determine if the extra d6 is rolled for armor penetration.

I do relent on the Blast rules being their own, but that is because Non-blast weapons still have to follow the normal sequence; but if you are firing just blasts then the Sequence is given in entirety and technically the first 2(Check LOS & Pick a target, + Check range) are redundant as they are included in the Blast rules; but for completeness and RAW, yes they must be followed.

The blast rules tell you to not do the check range step before rolling to hit, but after placing the blast marker. It is an explicit change to the timing when step 2 is taken. The be more correct, it just places the blast marker before continuing the steps as normal.

Taking step 2 twice would be against the rules, as you are not allowed to measure before placing the blast marker. This would defeat the whole purpose of those rules. You simply could measure to the unit without effect and then place your blast marker accordingly, without any danger of being out of range.

Melta range is measured when you check range. As you check range after placing the blast marker, you check melta range then, too. "Checking range" means exactly that, check range for everything, including melta, rapid fire or conversion beamers, not just check maximum range and nothing else.

No, they state "instead of rolling to hit" - which is step 3. Please find a rule stating they are replacing the first steps.

They are creating an additional check range - superfluous one as well.

If anything, the second paragraph replaces "rolling to hit". The paragraph following that does not.

It also does not say that the described procedure replaces any of the steps, template rules do that, blast doesn't. It says that models do not roll to hit. Then they go on to explain what happens instead. You could even read this as replacement of all shooting rules, as it even tells you to check line of sight.

After you have done that, indicated by the word "Next", you now check range. As the next step, after "rolling to hit" you check range. Which is a change of sequence.

Regular "check range" only checks the range to the closest model. This model might be in range, while the model you intended to place the blast marker may not. As measuring before placing the blast maker is obviously cheating, you may not do so.

If you shoot blast weapons by replacing step three with the blast rules you do a lot of stupid things (measuring twice, checking LoS twice) and even gain an unfair advantage in turn.
If you shoot blast weapons by simply following the rules in the blast weapon section and no other rules, everything works fine.

Thus, your way to read it must be wrong.

So, you dont have a rule stating it replaces the shooting steps.

Thats fine - you just need to actually say that.

My way must not "be wrong", its simply how GW wrote the rules. The vehicle moving rules do not actually replace the Infnatry movement rules, making them almost entirely superfluous rules - it doesnt make following the infantry rules (as you are told to do unless told otherwise) "wrong"

nosferatu1001 wrote:So, you dont have a rule stating it replaces the shooting steps.

You realize this counters your own argument?

You don't have a rule stating it replaces step 3 either.

My way must not "be wrong", its simply how GW wrote the rules. The vehicle moving rules do not actually replace the Infnatry movement rules, making them almost entirely superfluous rules - it doesnt make following the infantry rules (as you are told to do unless told otherwise) "wrong"

This is not how "GW wrote the rules". This is an actual rule found on page 51 concerning unit types. Vehicle is a unit type.

This rule does not apply to weapon types.

"instead of rolling to hit" is a rule.

Jidmah - its called "an example", you did realise that yes?

The rules for infantry movement tell you to use these rules until told otherwise - for ALL unit types

The rules for vehicles give you rules about movement, but do NOT state these replace the movement rules for Infantry. Thus you can still use infantry rules if you so wish.

I'm giving an example of another situation where you end up with superfluos rules. That does not make following one "wrong", which is your erroneous statement.

nosferatu1001 wrote:"instead of rolling to hit" is a rule.

That sentence is not part of the blast rule. It appears on the template rules.

Jidmah - its called "an example", you did realise that yes?

The rules for infantry movement tell you to use these rules until told otherwise - for ALL unit types

The rules for vehicles give you rules about movement, but do NOT state these replace the movement rules for Infantry. Thus you can still use infantry rules if you so wish.

You are not allowed to use default rules unless told so. You are not told to use default rules for ranged weapons. What is the default weapon supposed to be? Assault? Rapid Fire? Heavy?

I'm giving an example of another situation where you end up with superfluos rules. That does not make following one "wrong", which is your erroneous statement.

No, you are comparing oranges to apples. Blast replaces an entire procedure, just like skimmer movement replaces all infantry movement rules. You don't measure 6" and then 12" or roll dangerous terrain twice for those either.

Actually its the opposite way round: you use the default rules UNLESS told differently. Thats what makes them "defaulT" - its the definition of the word for starters.

So where are the default weapon rules? Please quote.

In addition Blast rules do tell you otherwise.

Sigh.

There are no default weapon types. There ARE default movement rules, and there ARE default shooting rules.

Reread, and note that I never claimed *everything* had a default rule...

So the default shooting rules are replaced by blast shooting rules. As they obviously change the way you shoot, including LoS, measuring range, and rolling to hit. Only after wounding it returns to normal shooting.

...except you only replace the default rules if they explicitly tell you to do so.

Checking LoS to a model instead of a unit and measuring to the the hole of the blast marker instead of measuring to the closest model of a unit is explicitly telling you to do something different. It really can't get any more explicit.

On that note, none of the weapon rules explicitly tell you to replace the default rules, other than templates replacing to hit. By your logic that must mean that all rapid fire weapons fire an additional shot using their profile at their target. If you use the regular LoS and check range step in addition to the specific rules, you also use the regular shot in addition to the rapid fire rules, as the default number of shots is one(pg. 27).

Guys,TBH,all I wanted to know was what part of the marker do I measure to,and do I do it before or after scattering.

Deadshot wrote:Guys,TBH,all I wanted to know was what part of the marker do I measure to,and do I do it before or after scattering.

For weapon range, you check to the center of the blast marker, and you do it before scattering.

For determining if in range to get 2d6, you measure from the weapon to the hull of the hit vehicle. The blast marker doesn't matter.

Yeah its too late...nos is tearing someone up. Check before scatter (in case you hit) or after scatter (if you don't) but its too the hull, just like a normal multi-melta shot.