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*EDIT Please vote once for the upgrade and once for the cost! It's always nice to hear people's reasons behind a change like this. Also, even if you think the missile launcher is fine the way it is, please state WHY! A poll with no feedback is next to worthless!

Voting more than twice in the manner I've outlined above will destroy the integrity of the poll and make the data worthless. Please be an adult about your voting.

First post on Dakka.

Ok, I can't be the only one who thinks that the missile launcher on the Dread is slightly broke! Help me out here.

Which is more agreeable? TL missile launcher or making launcher Heavy 2? There are arguments for both, but I'm leaning more towards TL. Also, how much would it cost?

And please, before you go on about walkers and what they can do, take a good hard look at the costs of dreadnought weapons compared to those same weapons carried by other units (I'm talking about YOU Devastator squad)...

Thanks for the feedback and help!

- FR

I think twin linked would be best. The AC is only slightly better than the ML, and the TLAC is considered a powerful option.

I've always thought the Missile launcher on the Dread should be Heavy 2. Cyclone launchers which are little racks on the top of Terminator armor are Heavy 2 and it only seem fair that a vehicle which dedicates half of its firepower to a Missile launcher should get the same. That would also make Venerable Dreads a little better because twin linking basically wastes that extra point of BS they have.

Well...I don't see it as a waste just because its BS 5...more like overkill. I'm shooting for something balanced and that makes sense. I want people to find it acceptable so that I can field my dreads this way.

Also, what about point costs?

They way I see it, TL missile launchers should cost between 15 and 20 points. There isn't really anything in the codex to justify them being more expensive. I'll also point out that TL weapons in the Tau codex cost 1.5 times the single weapon, while in the SM codex it fluctuates from ~1.2 (the lowest I calculated) to almost 1.6 times single weapons...

I think the missile launcher, which takes away the DCCW and storm bolter, should at least be 2 shots, seeing as your also paying 10 points for it.

125 for 2 missile launcher mortis dreads, to compete with 2 autocannon dreads for the same cost, is quite fair. Both would get 4 shots, the missiles would be s8 while the autos would be s7 and twin linked. The s7 is better at light armor, the s8 better at heavier armor. Then we can have Archer AND Riflemen dreads!

Edit: On second thought, the 2 shot missile system should be a little more expensive than the riflemen. 15 points per launcher, making the dread 135, fits a bit better. The riflemen dread should also be a bit cheaper, only 115 IMHO (though GK riflemen dreads should still be 135 if not more)

I've always felt like the Dreadnought should be able to have a Missle Launcher on each arm and fire them as a special ranged weapon along the lines of

48" Str 8 Ap 3 Heavy 4

OR

48" Str 4 Ap 6 Heavy 4

That means the two MLs fire and count as one weapon, but get extra extra shots to mitigate that.

I'm getting the feeling that people here wouldn't have a problem with Heavy 2? My local gamers seem more inclined to play against TL instead...

I'd like more people to put their two cents in so we can get a better feel for how the missile launcher should be changed.

@DevianID - I grew up playing Battletech, but I'm way more of a Robotech/Macross fan! Defender and Spartan Dreads sound way better!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Having thought about it, I really have to disagree with Heavy 2 missile launchers on a Dread. I'm not seeking to replace other Dread weapons, and that's exactly what would happen if you made the launcher H2. No more autocannon. There would be no reason to ever take it. No, I think TLing the missile launcher both fixes what I see as wrong with it AND keeps all the other weapon options in competition.

I dont think i would have a problem with that.

If its twin linked then it should be free, so 105 for 2 twin linked missile launchers. The autocannon is better than a single missile launcher, so a twin linked autocannon is better than a twin linked missile launcher.

That said, seeing as the dread is similiar to the tactical dreadnaught armor having the terminator missile system be the same as the dreadnaught system makes sense.

I think that they should not be free. If the standard missile launcher remains an option (for points purposes) than a TL ML should cost between 15 and 20 (I'm leaning towards 15 for reasons I've already mentioned). If the TL ML replaces the standard missile launcher for the Dread, then maybe the cost is 10 each. But no way does 2 TL weapons with the stats and flexibility of the ML cost the same as a Multimelta and DCCW/SB.

But I agree with that assessment of the Termies v. Dreads.

I say the Dreads should be able to take a top mounted Cyclone Missile Launcher in addition to their standard weapons.

Why not just make it a typhoon?

@ DrRobert - I think adding a completely separate heavy weapon to the Dread would make a completely different Dread...and on the same level as a Venerable for cost. I'm only concerned with the standard Dread in this thread

@ Byte - Sure, I could take a missile launcher that was H2 for the Dread and call it a Typhoon Missile Launcher, but that's not really in the spirit of what I'm try to achieve. Why don't we just put a Thunderfire cannon on it as well!

I'm shooting for an acceptable way (for all gamers) to take the unaltered missile launcher (or with few greebles attached) and bring it in line with the rest of the Dread's weapons. I'm striving to maintain balance and fairness. Also, this is for all chapters (unless otherwise forbidden in their codexi as well as Chaos).

ForgottenRealm wrote:@ DrRobert - I think adding a completely separate heavy weapon to the Dread would make a completely different Dread...and on the same level as a Venerable for cost. I'm only concerned with the standard Dread in this thread

@ Byte - Sure, I could take a missile launcher that was H2 for the Dread and call it a Typhoon Missile Launcher, but that's not really in the spirit of what I'm try to achieve. Why don't we just put a Thunderfire cannon on it as well!

I'm shooting for an acceptable way (for all gamers) to take the unaltered missile launcher (or with few greebles attached) and bring it in line with the rest of the Dread's weapons. I'm striving to maintain balance and fairness. Also, this is for all chapters (unless otherwise forbidden in their codexi as well as Chaos).

Just saying. GW did it with the stormraven. HVY 2 would be preferred.

Lol, true! But we aren't GW. And I'm trying to find out what the general consensus is here on Dakka as to which upgrade is more acceptable. And remember, I'm not trying to replace the autocannon!

Your Friend Doctor Robert wrote:I say the Dreads should be able to take a top mounted Cyclone Missile Launcher in addition to their standard weapons.

Agreed, or TL Astartes GLs.

Ok, please keep it within the spirit of the original post. I'm not a munchkin and I'm not trying to make the Dread some uber fantastic super unit. Not trying to make it a Troop selection. Not trying to make it fly. And I'm not talking about adding a third weapon hardpoint!

I'm trying to get MANY people's opinions, and while additional comments are fine, they need to stay on topic. Otherwise no one is really helping anyone, are they?

I agree that a CML equivalent would be best, for 15pts I'd say.

I do think it's worthwhile to point out that this further overshadows the existing missile launcher, but this can be justified somewhat as a result of it being man-portable, rather than mounted on a vehicle.
Alternatively, whilst I think Heavy2 is probably the best option, it could just be a cheaper upgrade as a result of losing the DCCW.

I would also recommend you make an option in the poll for basically 'fine as it is' and 'cheaper'

I say Twin-Linked.

i say just make it a cyclone missile launcher instead.

Or perhaps a new weapon called the "hit"ile lancher which is a twin linked version of the missile launcher

Your poll is flawed. You give no option for people that think there is nothing wrong with the current model or weapons.

The Weapon might cost more than for a dev squad, but remember those Devs can't move and shot, also those devs can be killed by Str5 and lower weapons while the Walker can not.

I think my point about it not being H2 is valid. I'm not seeking to replace the autocannon. This is what will happen if the missile launcher becomes H2.

I would really like to hear people's reasoning behind why they think H2 would be more acceptable both in terms of gameplay and cost!

I AM trying to propose a change to the Dread that the majority find acceptable, and I don't think that simply slapping H2 on it (without supporting logic/comparisons) and calling it good is the right way to go. Further, @ Just Dave, doubling the firepower for 1.5x the cost doesn't seem right with regards to other weapons in the codex.

While I don't object to making the ML H2, I believe it would require some damn fine evidence to support it!

To restate my position:

I think TL is the better option because:
1 - it wouldn't replace/downplay any other Dread weapon
2 - a chance to reroll a miss is quite a bit different than double the firepower (60% chance to hit, miss, reroll to hit at 60% still only equals one hit v. two 60% chance to hit shots)

Regarding the cost, you'd have to ask yourself 'is the missile launcher worth taking at 10pts', I'd assume that's a no, hence the creation of the thread. Nonetheless, in retrospect I would agree with 20pts being more reasonable.

H2 wouldn't necessarily replace the autocannon on account of cost, whilst admittedly it would infringe to an extent, there still remains that gap.

I don't believe TL is worth it, partially because it doesn't appear twin-linked (but does appear to be 2-shot, judging by CML/TML), but also because it doesn't really help the venerable dread nor make it that much better; BS4 is still likely to hit, TL or not.

Judging from the pro's and con's of TL & H2, it may just be worth making it free or 5pts.



(I must say Forgotten' - judging by this thread alone admittedly - you seem very reasonable and considerate of all perspectives, which is something I think is really good and nice to see, particularly in this part of the forum)

I try, Dave!

Yes, I think the standard Dread missile launcher doesn't make any sense. And it is just as TL as any two barreled cannon (why can't I opt to use my TL Lascannon as H2 instead?)

However, I think you're only right about H2 not replacing the A/C if: we're not playing munchkins AND you play an opponent that REALLY wants to put ~20 points elsewhere!

Definitely thanks for the feedback!

- FR

*note - my concept for TL is that the system detects a miss extremely rapidly (before impact...MATH!) and auto-fires a second missile. In this way it doesn't need a separate launcher like the H2 Cyclone or Typhoon.

That is also true regarding the TL appearance, but I must say that increased RoF makes more sense in light of the CML and Typhoons appearance.

Whilst 10pts may not seem a significant difference, it adds up and as they are riflemen are great value-for-money/points. If things were so simple as 'its only 10pts', then many things would automatically be taken by a player...

Personally, it seems to be that neither TL or H2 is a suitable solution; hence a points reduction. Which would seem fair considering you loose a DCCW & Storm Bolter.
You could argue to make it Missile Launcher & Storm Bolter/Heavy Flamer, but I don't think that's enough of an improvement IMHO.

Food for thought. I didn't want to suggest adding back one of the lighter weapons lost with the DCCW as I didn't want to be accused of cheese...

I think a stormbolter added to a TL ML would be worth 10pts in your example. It would remove the uncertainty of the frag missile at close ranges against horde armies...

Also, I was thinking about adding some greebles to the ML to represent an enhanced rapid-response targeting system.

What if it stayed the same, but the dread was given a wargear option similar to that of the Tau's target lock? (forgetting the target priority test, of course)

@Nocturn - That would allow the modification of the rest of the Dreads weapons, which is a little beyond the scope of this thread. And while I personally agree that SM and IG tech is a little TOO dumbed down, we have to accept that they are climbing out of a technological dark age and simultaneously stifled by an oppressive galactic regime!

It should be heavy 2 and be the same price as the TL autocannon...