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...it does not mean that, in a straight-up fight, a Space Marine could kill 10, 30, 100, 1000, whatver Guardsmen across an empty plain.

It means that the Space Marines' mobility, training, indoctrination, and support means you have a small contingent of pure death on legs getting missions done, wherever they need to be doing it, where other armies have to deal with the logistical nightmare of getting their troops to bear, frequent problems with discipline and communication, and the fact that a lot of the soldiers really would rather be doing something else.

I think a marine could kill 10 guardsmen fairly easily...

I think 40K is fairly 'fair' in terms of in game abilities of space marines in comparison to other troops. however the scenarios would be very different. Space Marines would appear from nowhere and attack with suprise or orbital fire support.

Marines dont stand up for a fair fight with 1:1 odds, they would only do that in an exercise or tourney, which is what most 40k games would represent.

I think in a straight up fight, no surprises, an Imperial Guard squad actually stands a decent chance of winning. But the Marine knows this, and won't fight straight up.

They're not as stupid as the lore depicts them, I think.

It's like saying that a Navy seal is worth ten regular soldiers (due to the cost of equipment and training required). That's not true, but they may be able to accomplish something with 10 men that it would take a company to accomplish (like blowing up a certain bridge).

For space marines, it's more like, "strategically and tactically, 10 space marines can do the job of 100 guardsmen) and that's probably true. They are experts at what they do, and true veterans.

However in a straight up fight, who can say? It depends on the situation, the tactical ability of both fighters, etc. Two smart guardsmen could probably kill a space marine, if they had time.

So yeah, think of them as a tactical asset. Tactically a space marine squad is worth many guardsmen. Actually it's much more even.

Hang on...
Do they get their guns and armour and stuff?

The White Dwarf 300 says they all vary in intelligence some are so intelligent they have an iq of 300. Which are the tactical geniuses and the Techmarines.

Space marines in an unarmed bar fight for example, the marine would win leaving nothing the bar but 10 dead guardsmen.

purplefood wrote:Hang on...
Do they get their guns and armour and stuff?

Yes. I firmly believe a squad of guardsmen, fully equipped with grenades, a special weapon, and a heavy weapon could destroy a fully equipped single Marine rather easily. If the Marine had a heavy weapon or jump pack, he'd stand a far better chance, of course.

I would say yes...that is part of what makes a Marine so dangerous. When you couple all that genetic enhancement with advanced gear, you get a pretty extraordinary fighting force, indeed.

However, the SM are not really suited for protracted wars of attrition (especially codex chapters with their low numbers), and I think the fluff reflects this.

Easily?

The Marine has far superior reaction-time, while he may not win, he will kill his share of guardsmen in the battle.

Only war that i know of that is close to guardsmen regular warfare is the Badab War. Mostly the most epic war ever.

Melissia wrote:

purplefood wrote:Hang on...
Do they get their guns and armour and stuff?

Yes. I firmly believe a squad of guardsmen, fully equipped with grenades, a special weapon, and a heavy weapon could destroy a fully equipped single Marine rather easily. If the Marine had a heavy weapon or jump pack, he'd stand a far better chance, of course.

That might do it...
Though the terrain may make it a touch more difficult to manage...

It depends on situation, I'd guess. A guardsmen firing off a plasma round into a marine will probably kill him. That took one guardsman.

So it really depends on the situation.

On a grander scale, a chapter of space marines is probably capable of handling a large host of IG, which, when abstracted, could yield an x to y ration. But really, it's more a question of tactics.

In game and points wise an average marine is worth 17 points, roughly 2 guardsmen, right?

Good point.
A melta blast would probably do the same...
Though a flamer might have a touch more trouble...
What kind of effect does a grenade launcher have on power armour do you think?

Krak or frag grenade?

A krak grenade isn't as powerful as a krak missile (which can utterly destroy a Marine in one hit), but it can certainly open up power armor if it gets a direct hit-- a krak grenade caused an opening in a Khornate Berserker's armor allowing Ciaphas Cain to skewer right through both of the Marine's hearts with his chainsword, for example.

The key to what makes Space Marines worth so much more is their fighting skill/power when combined with their combined-arms shock tactics.

They'll move by Thunderhawk/Teleporters to key enemy locations/strongpoints and quickly decimate all opposition with a skill/power the Imperial Guard can not. When the SM's work in squads with Thunderhawks/Orbital Bombardment/Land Raiders/Terminators/Dreadnoughts/Landspeeders they'll achieve far better results then an Imperial Guard Regiment would for a deep strike or surgical strike mission.

1 on 1 a Space Marine could probably take on an IG squad, but that's of less significance.

At low levels, I'm pretty sure a comparison is impossible.

A Space Marine carrying a Flamer might kill off 10 guardsmen or more, or a guardsmen with a melta-gun might fry a terminator.
No one is worth x to y.

"Napoleon's hat on a battlefield is worth 10,000 men"- Duke of Wellington. This quote, to me, sums up what the people who originally said "a space marine is worth x other troops" really meant

purplefood wrote:I think a marine could kill 10 guardsmen fairly easily...

I'd have expected them to be able to kill a lot more than 10 but maybe the real difference is that a marine doesn't get tired and can keep on going so they're able to kill those 10 guardsmen each and every time 10 of them show up.
If a marine is only worth 10 guardsmen afterall then it hardly seems worth the effort to train them when there are only a handful of them in the Imperium. It means that a Marine Chapter is only worth three bog standard IG regiments and a tank regiment. That's pitiful when you consider how many guard regiments fight in various campaigns.
I'd say a marine was worth 100 guardsmen with the obvious benefit that a small space can be occupied by a single marine with the fighting ability of an entire company of guard, now that's an asset, not one marine being the equivalent of a squad of guard.

cadbren wrote:

purplefood wrote:I think a marine could kill 10 guardsmen fairly easily...

I'd have expected them to be able to kill a lot more than 10 but maybe the real difference is that a marine doesn't get tired and can keep on going so they're able to kill those 10 guardsmen each and every time 10 of them show up.
If a marine is only worth 10 guardsmen afterall then it hardly seems worth the effort to train them when there are only a handful of them in the Imperium. It means that a Marine Chapter is only worth three bog standard IG regiments and a tank regiment. That's pitiful when you consider how many guard regiments fight in various campaigns.
I'd say a marine was worth 100 guardsmen with the obvious benefit that a small space can be occupied by a single marine with the fighting ability of an entire company of guard, now that's an asset, not one marine being the equivalent of a squad of guard.

Ever try to fit 50 guardsmen into a drop pod. It's not a nice picture.

Remember, marines are meant to do certain jobs that they excel at. In these jobs, 1 marine may equal even 1000 guardsmen (like 20 marines going to wipe out a specific tactical threat, that guardsmen would have to hammer their way to).

But in face-to-face combat, there are really too many variables to say. Like a terminator w/ an AC could wipe out scores of guardsmen easily, while a guardsmen with a melta/plasma gun could easily wipe out that termie.

nomotog wrote:

Ever try to fit 50 guardsmen into a drop pod. It's not a nice picture.

I'm thinking it would be something like this:

1 on 1 Ork vrs gaurdsman?????

....... one strong but stupid one smart but squishy.

there is too much luck in this question to make a decision. A lucky assault termie squad with storm shields and thunder hammers could wipe out an entire 2000 point guardsman army. But if they all got bad roles, then a heavy weapon guardsman squad could kill a termie turn one. But a single unarmed/unarmoured space marine could break 1000 unarmed/unarmoured guardsmen fluff wise. Though in the game, it would not take many hits to kill a space marine without any armour save.

First, it's an analogy, and not a scientific statement, so give it a rest.

Second, when you are comparing a Marine and 10 Guardsmen, you can't use the table top game to evaluate something said by a person in the 40K universe. The tabletop game is an imperfect (deliberately imperfect) emulation of that fictitious world. Just one example: casualties in the TTG are not necessarily fatalities in the game world. A model removed from the board is unable to fight effectively in that combat encounter, though it might be dead, unconscious, or just badly wounded.

A fight between 10 guardsmen and 1 Marine might end with the Marine suffering multiple lasgun wounds and bayonet cuts, and Imperial Guardsmen with heads and limbs blown off by bolter rounds. The marine's physiology will get him back into the fight quickly, as his wounds will quickly clot, etc., while the Guardsmen will be dead or might die quickly of their massive wounds. However, for game purposes, you might remove the Space Marine and a bunch of guardsmen from the board. Although in the "40 Universe" the Marine is ready for another fight in minutes, in the game, he's been taken out by Guardsmen. The Marine can survive hundreds of fights like this over his service, while the Guardsmen might be lucky to live through one fight with a Space Marine. Now, how do you sum up their comparative worth? By the single fight, or over their service period?

The Monk wrote:1 on 1 Ork vrs gaurdsman?????

....... one strong but stupid one smart but squishy.

Unless the Guardsmen is a Catachan or equivalent, the Ork is gonna win every time.

in the numerous books ive read theres plenty of examples of space marines vs normal men.

I seem to remember an inquisitor punching right through a space marine (chaos) with a power fist... Henry Zou

Battle of the fang, space marines tear hundreds of normal soldiers to shreds with close combat claws.

I think if you look deep enough at the fluff theres plenty of examples on both sides of this argument.

purplefood wrote:I think a marine could kill 10 guardsmen fairly easily...

But those 10 guardsmen will most likely be carrying a plethora of special / heavy weapons...and the marine will get melta'd in the face

"Give me a hundred Space Marines. Or failing that give me a thousand other troops" - Rogal Dorn

I also remember reading about an IG officer saying: "A space marine company capable of striking anywhere at anytime is worth an entire division of guardsmen."

I think these quotes sum up what we need to understand from SM.

Their true strength lies in the fact that they are able to strike the enemy where it would hurt the most, before withdrawing with minimal losses and striking another vulnerable position a few hours later.
Their speed, versatility and precision acts as a force multiplier. As a result, they are able to cause tremendous damage to the enemy compared to their precious few numbers. And no IG formation would be able to do that.