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Can someone please explain to me how the Inferno cannon works? As quoted from the IG codex.

*To fire the inferno cannon place the template so that the narrow end is within 12" of the weapon and the large end is no closer to the weapon then the narrow end. The inferno cannon is then treated like any other template weapon.

This makes abso-freaking-lutely no sense to me at all what so ever. I've never even noticed how confusing the rule apears until today. Any help anyone can offer would be excellent.

You measure out to twelve inches and place the pointed/narrow/smaller end of the flamer template somewhere in the range. the Larger/circular end can now be positioned anyway you wish with the small end of the template staying put as long as the large end of the template is no closer to the hull of the tank than the distance you measured to the small end of the template.


It's exactly like it sounds. The it is treated like any other template weapon refers to a lack of cover saves as well as auto hit but still have to roll to wound.

You should agree with you opponent how to handle "cover as many models as possible" before the game though.

Jidmah wrote:You should agree with you opponent how to handle "cover as many models as possible" before the game though.

You again

The cover as many models as possible is determined by which unit you are firing at. Unless otherwise stated, the template would have to be placed within the 12" such that the maximum number of models are placed under the template marker. So whatever legal orientation with the small end remaining within 12" covers to most models is how you have to place it.

Hellhound is a pain, its a flamer template let off the leash, you can hit as many models with it as you can fit touching the template!!

What happens though when it can cover two squads? It's a bit different for a normal flamer weapon cos it has to start at the flamer so it could stretch to hit a second squad, but what about a Hellhound which could be in range to cover models from two squads easily!?

iirc the only stipulation about templates is that you're not allowed hit friendly models or close combats with them if possible. So can you cover two squads?

Jidmah wrote:You should agree with you opponent how to handle "cover as many models as possible" before the game though.

Just like you need to clarify with your opponent how to read the dice before the game starts? Why would you need to clarify something that's already crystal clear?

s.j.mccartney wrote:Hellhound is a pain, its a flamer template let off the leash, you can hit as many models with it as you can fit touching the template!!

What happens though when it can cover two squads? It's a bit different for a normal flamer weapon cos it has to start at the flamer so it could stretch to hit a second squad, but what about a Hellhound which could be in range to cover models from two squads easily!?

iirc the only stipulation about templates is that you're not allowed hit friendly models or close combats with them if possible. So can you cover two squads?

You are allowed to hit two squads, but one still has to be designated as the primary unit being targeted, and as such the maximum number of models in that squad must be covered. If you can hit a second squad without jeapordizing the number of models hit in the first squad then you are ok. But if it reduces the number of models in the target unit hit then you can't do it.

I don't know if anyone remembers the butthurt Dark Eldar player whining about hellhounds on here, but the whole "cover as many models or cover as much of the vehicle" rule doesn't apply to the hellhound because of the order in which the shooting process for it occurs.

ToI wrote:

Jidmah wrote:You should agree with you opponent how to handle "cover as many models as possible" before the game though.

You again

The cover as many models as possible is determined by which unit you are firing at. Unless otherwise stated, the template would have to be placed within the 12" such that the maximum number of models are placed under the template marker. So whatever legal orientation with the small end remaining within 12" covers to most models is how you have to place it.

You'll have to get used to me when posting on YMDC :p

There are 3 common ways to play the hellhound
1) Pick a place somewhere within 12" and then cover as many models as possible from there
2) Cover as many models as possible while keeping the small end within 12" and closer than the big one
3) Inferno cannon rules replace "cover as many models as possible". Place template anywhere you want, while keeping the small end within 12" and closer than the big one. If you don't cover the target unit, you miss.

I have seen all three variant used, so make sure which one you/your opponent are using before the game.
You won't come to an agreement about those rules if someone is about to lose models, so do it before the game.

Place it 12" away so the wide end is farther away. Then follow the template rules. The placing it over as many models as possible would change how the template is placed in the previous step.

-cgmckenzie

So first you declare the target you are shooting at and that you are using the inferno cannon.
Next you measure out 12" and place the template so that the small end is at 12" or less and the template itself is covering as many enemy models as possible AND the large end cannot be closer to the tip of the inferno cannon than the small end.
If you can also pick off members of another enemy squad then you are allowed to do so.

If at any point you are out of range or hit any of your models then the shot misses.

With that said you can target a squad that is further away say at the 18" mark and only be able to hit one guy. So as long as you hit one guy and stay within the above steps you can pick off as many from other squads as possible.

Akroma - you have just plain made up the "if at any point..." part. You are prohibited from covering your own models; that does not, in itself, make the shot miss.

Covering as many models is not part of the inferno canon rules. The template is placed before the template rules are followed, effectively replacing the template placing rules.

-cgmckenzie

cgmckenzie wrote:Covering as many models is not part of the inferno canon rules. The template is placed before the template rules are followed, effectively replacing the template placing rules.

-cgmckenzie

wat?

All it changes is where you are allowed to place the template...not how you are required to place it. It doesn't tell you to change the rules, it just changes the origin point of template placement. I don't see anywhere that it says you are not required to follow the placing instructions.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Akroma - you have just plain made up the "if at any point..." part. You are prohibited from covering your own models; that does not, in itself, make the shot miss.

Does it hit? No.

cgmckenzie wrote:Covering as many models is not part of the inferno canon rules. The template is placed before the template rules are followed, effectively replacing the template placing rules.

-cgmckenzie

It clearly states that it is then treated like any other template with the exception of the range and the ability to rotate it somewhat. So it does not change any of the other rules. You have to have permission to change anything else which you don't have.

It states word for word. "To fire the inferno cannon place the template so thatthe narrow end is within 12" of the weapon and the large end is no closer to the weapon than the narrow end. The inferno cannon is then treated like any other template weapon. Pg 50 Codex: IG"

Note that all it tells you is that it can be placed instead of touching the weapon (as is the norm) and then gives you the area for it afterward. Nowhere does it say that you can touch one of your own or that you don't have to touch the majority of the models...The bold tells you what to do afterward.

Before this gets carried away into another 6 page thread viciously arguing back and forth, I hasten to mention that we've covered this already, complete with yakface weighing in with some (as usual) wise comments on the matter. I will find it and link the thread.

Back in a minute.

daedalus wrote:Before this gets carried away into another 6 page thread viciously arguing back and forth, I hasten to mention that we've covered this already, complete with yakface weighing in with some (as usual) wise comments on the matter. I will find it and link the thread.

Back in a minute.

I'm not trying to be vicious. I see how they got to their conclusion and I have arrived at a different one. We are now discussing it. Any other threads that are duplicates would be appreciated.

No accusations were intended, nor was offense meant. I just know how these things go when there never ends up being a 100% correct answer.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/370927.page

Quad erat demonstrandum

Talk about it with your opponent beforehand.

daedalus wrote:No accusations were intended, nor was offense meant. I just know how these things go when there never ends up being a 100% correct answer.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/370927.page

Yakface makes a good point in that thread regarding the difference between RAW and being playable. If you say you can place without restriction BEFORE you treat it like a template weapon then you break almost every rule for shooting outside of range. And this is why it's called "you make da call" Not, "what is the letter of the law, and that's the way it has to be" Anyway I maintain my position that it has to be placed like a normal template with the exception of it's range and where it can face.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also - Jidmah has said it right a few times now, in these situations you want to make sure you discuss with opponents how to play it

daedalus wrote:No accusations were intended, nor was offense meant. I just know how these things go when there never ends up being a 100% correct answer.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/370927.page

Yeah I didn't think you were accusing me or anyone and I took no offense I just like to try and keep things as cool as possible. After all if both people are yelling then no one can hear even if you are silent.
Yakface did make some good points. I still stand by my original posting that you have to hit as many as possible in the original group within that radius.

Edit: Jidmah you are right talking about it with your opponent beforehand is the best issue (Rule #1 pg 2.) and if you can't agree dice off on it.

Well thanks for the replies everyone. I think i understand it now although correct me if i've misunderstood.

An Inferno cannon is essentialy a flamer with a 12" barrel.

Yae or Nay?

yeah that sounds like raw...

House rule for my group of gamers, for any weapon like that, The small end can be placed anywhere in that 12", but the center line of the template has to line up with the center line of the barrel, which to me makes sense. Definitely not RAW, but dilligaf.

Akroma - no, the template simply cannot be placed there - it doesnt "automatically miss", which would imply you forfeit your shot.

You would only automatically miss through this situation if there was no legal situation in which you could place the template, which shows your statement to be false - you stated it as a sufficient condition by itself, when it is not. It isnt even a necessary condition, as it can auto miss for other reasons. It is simply "a" condition, and is incorrect as a blanket statement.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Akroma - no, the template simply cannot be placed there - it doesnt "automatically miss", which would imply you forfeit your shot.

You would only automatically miss through this situation if there was no legal situation in which you could place the template, which shows your statement to be false - you stated it as a sufficient condition by itself, when it is not. It isnt even a necessary condition, as it can auto miss for other reasons. It is simply "a" condition, and is incorrect as a blanket statement.

Ok my point was with that part if you are unable to place the template because you hit a friendly then the shot cannot be fired, or the flamer misses, however you want to call that. A perfect example would be that you are trying to hit a squad with a standard flamer but a different friendly squad is in the way. Assuming lets say a model from that squad is standing infront of your Flamer then you cannot hit the target squad as the template would be over a friendly model.

Same thing here if you can only hit 1 or 2 guys but the only way to get them or even one of them is to have the template touching one of your men or rotated to the point that the large end is closer than the small end to avoid a friendly then that is an illegal placement of the template and being unable to fire a declared weapon to fire I consider a miss, you may call it that the model can't shoot but is treated as having fired.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Brother Azul wrote:Well thanks for the replies everyone. I think i understand it now although correct me if i've misunderstood.

An Inferno cannon is essentialy a flamer with a 12" barrel.

Yae or Nay?

Yae to the extent that you can also rotate the template and that only the small part has to be within 12" not the big end.

Akroma - I understand that perfectly, however your blanket statement was incorrect.

Akroma06 wrote:

If at any point you are out of range or hit any of your models then the shot misses.

I am assuming this is the part you are reffering too.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Akroma - I understand that perfectly, however your blanket statement was incorrect.

If you are not in range then you miss. That is in the BRB. If you are unable to place the template so that you don't hit any of your models its a miss. I didn't include the one about the template and rotation, but otherwise how is that incorrect?

Note that I'm not trying to be confrontational here I just want to know if I am wrong and why.

Not being able to fire a weapon is not the same as being out of range.

For example, if you have Marbo standing in the middle of a powerblob and he decides to throw his democharge, he can't place the blast marker in a way that he doesn't touch any friendly models, thus he can't throw his demo charge. He was not out of range, so his demo charge is still available to him.

Same for the hellhound, if you moved 12" and decide to shoot the inferno cannon but find yourself unable to place the template, you may fire the secondary weapon instead. Because the inferno cannon didn't miss, but was unable to fire.

Oh ok. I get why it would matter for say marbo. So it's a terminology difference on the hellhound.
Gotcha.

Here is the cliffnotes summary of how to properly fire the cannon:

1) Decide any point, anywhere within 12" of your weapon.
2) Declare the unit you are shooting at.
3) Cover as many models in the target unit as possible whilst not breaking the following rules:
3a) Cannot cover friendly models.
3b) Large end of the template cannot be closer than the small end of the template to the shooting weapon.

The key is to pick a good initial point.