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Tried to do a search, but kept getting an error message.

Let's say you surround an enemy unit on the edge of the board with land speeders, then you tank shock that unit. It passes its morale check, and must now be placed the minimum distance to get out of the way. Now, the unit can't move the absolute minimum distance, because that would put it within 1" of an enemy model, so I'm guessing that minimum distance in this case, would actually be several inches behind the shocking tank. This would actually be moving the unit quite a distance in the case of a land raider. Is this correct? Allowing the enemy unit to actually move through the land raider since that is the only possible minimum distance? Or would the unit be destroyed since it has nowhere it can be placed?

And what if, after doing this (assuming its legal to move through the land raider), the other player still can't fit their unit without being within 1 inch of another enemy unit? Is the entire unit destroyed? Or just the models that can't be placed?

I'm at work without my BGB right in front of me, but if I recall, it states to keep moving the tank shocked unit until it is clear of enemy models. So, if you tank shocked a unit along the back of the board with a Land Raider, the unit would move so that the Land Raider could fit where they were formerly and they would remain 1" away from the Land Raider itself. If, somehow, you blocked this passage by keeping other tanks within 1" of the Land Raider, I believe that they continue to move until they clear the shocking unit and any enemy unit within 1".

However, without my BGB, I can't confirm this or give you a page number.

Units can move through the vehicle that is tank shocking them if that's the shortest distance to get into the clear. And they will keep being moved until such a time as they will all fit legally.

Tank Shocking (without a deffrolla) can never kill anything that passed it's morale check (except one guy who fails to stop the vehicle with DoG).

This should help:

Games Workshop Rulebook FAQ wrote:Q: Can models moving out of the way of a tank shock
after passing their Morale test be forced to move off of
the board if that is the shortest distance to get out
from underneath the vehicle? (p68)
A: No, they must move the shortest distance that also
keeps them on the board.

This topic made me think. Lets say you completely surround an infantry unit with other infantry. Then, with a tankshocking skimmer, declare the exact correct distance to land right on the surrounded unit. What happens to the unit if they pass their morale and dont death or glory? Can they move through other enemy models to get out from under the skimmer??

And that is what started my confusion.

You have to move the minimum distance to stay in play, but there is no reference for allowing your units to move through enemy units. I think it's safe to assume you are not allowed to move through the enemy infantry, or any other models for that matter. The real question is, does that tank shock faq give you permission to move through the enemy tank that is shocking you if that is the only possible avenue? I'm not certain it does

Are you expecting the models to take dangerous or difficult terrain tests while they are "moved"? I assume you aren't.

Then why do expect any of the other movement rules to apply when those models are "moved the minimum distance necessary"?

Well, the terrain tests are not needed because they are already explained by the dangerous terrain ruleset itself which says you only take those tests if your units moved into the terrain on their move, not when pushed in during the opponents move.

To my knowledge, there is no rule in the brb that allows you to move 7" through an enemy model, hence my confusion as to weather or not the tank shock rules would allow this with their wording, or if a unit can become trapped and unable to move the minimum distance needed.

With the way the faq is worded, I am inclined to agree that this is allowed and a tank shocked unit can't become trapped

omerakk wrote:
To my knowledge, there is no rule in the brb that allows you to move 7" through an enemy model,

Actually, in falling back from Close Combat, you will continue to fall back until you are 1" clear of enemy models that were in the combat. So, if 1 model breaks and is surrounded by 30 orks, but he only rolls snake-eyes to break, he will continue to fall back towards his table edge until he has cleared 1" of the orks he was in combat with, no matter how far it takes him.

If there are more orks on the other side, he is not considered trapped, but can move (still using the shortest route possible) to avoid the new orks, all the while still breaking towards his table edge.

That's the thing though, in a fall back move, you are granted permission to move through the units you were in combat with, but you do not have permission to move through enemy units you weren't in combat with. This is how people trap the deceiver.

I believe that this tank shocking scenario proceeds to same way: you are allowed to move through the tank if you have to (if that is the minimum distance), but I don't think you are given permission to move through other enemy models.

Obviously this won't happen in 99.9% of games, but I'm just theorycrafting here.

What happens if you have say, a group of paladins completely surrounded by 2 squads of howling banshees. There are no gaps the paladins can escape through, and the entire circle is 1" from the paladins. Since Eldar have tanks that are also skimmers, could they tank shock the paladins inside this bubble? And if so, what happens to them if they pass their morale test? The eldar vehicle ended its movement directly ontop of them. They are allowed to move through the vehicle, but are they allowed to move through the banshees? Is there a rule that allows you to move through unengaged enemy models? And if not, what happens to the paladins since they can't get the required 1" from an enemy model?

Really easy actually - the skimmer stops tankshocking if it comes into contact with a friendly unit. No way to jump onto a unit which is completely surrounded.

...unless you read that skimmers move over obstacles - nothing states that you lose that ability when tank shocking.

So, how do you ever tankshock enemies?

Because it states they "can", not they "must" - so you simply choose when they ignore terrain.

SKimmers and tankshocking have been inconsistently played since 4th ed...

Besides, they can move over their own units, but would still have to stop as soon as they contact them, which would be before moving over them.

Except they dont contact them, as they ignore them.

As I said, ive seen places play it both ways. Another conversation (although i assume it gets the benefits but not the drawbacks, i have one skimmer and thats only for doubles )

Unlike, for example, shunt, skimmers don't ignore intervening models, they just have permission to move over them.

However, this does not prevent them from being stopped by friendly units or enemy vehicles during a tankshock, as they don't physically leave the table.

I constantly play eldar players, and (their) reasoning behind this is basically that the skimmer has to tank shock straight ahead without change of direction. Dodging up and down would be a change of direction.

A storm raven/vendetta however might be able tank-shock over friendly models, as the base is ignored for that purpose.

Dracos wrote:This topic made me think. Lets say you completely surround an infantry unit with other infantry. Then, with a tankshocking skimmer, declare the exact correct distance to land right on the surrounded unit. What happens to the unit if they pass their morale and dont death or glory? Can they move through other enemy models to get out from under the skimmer??

This happens:

Games Workshop Rulebook FAQ wrote:Q: Can models moving out of the way of a tank shock
after passing their Morale test be forced to move off of
the board if that is the shortest distance to get out
from underneath the vehicle? (p68)
A: No, they must move the shortest distance that also
keeps them on the board.

It's the answer that matters.

But thats my point - they have permission to move over them; nothing in the TS rules removes this permission.
So you can play it the laissez faire way, which is the skimmer hops over anything it watns to and TS / Rams the rest, or the way your (and our) Eldar players do it, which is that they ground hug the whole way.

These 2 FAQ answers pretty clearly indicate that you both ignore terrain moved over during a TS and can move over friendly and enemy models/units.

Rulebook FAQ wrote:Q: If a skimmer tank shocks or rams an enemy unit that
is in terrain must it take a Dangerous Terrain test? (p71)
A: Only if it begins or ends its move in terrain.

Q: If a skimmer is forced to stop moving by a Death or
Glory! attack whilst over a friendly or enemy model
what happens? (p71)
A: Move the skimmer the shortest possible distance so
that it is no longer over any models.

The way we play is that when skimmers Tank Shock you can selectively choose which units you hit. So if theres' a unit of guys with combi-meltas up front and a couple of less well armed units behind them, you can move over the combi melta unit (not TSing it) then TS the units behind them (how else would you end your move over enemy models as per the FAQ?).

Bugs N Orks is correct, ramming/tank shocking with a skimmer can be played like skipping a stone on water: you pick when it touches down along its path and when it skips over things.

nosferatu1001 wrote:But thats my point - they have permission to move over them; nothing in the TS rules removes this permission.
So you can play it the laissez faire way, which is the skimmer hops over anything it watns to and TS / Rams the rest, or the way your (and our) Eldar players do it, which is that they ground hug the whole way.

On the other way around, nothing the skimmer rules removes the forced halt if you touch your units.

Depends on whether "moving over" is seen as the tank passing through the unit of flying up high in the air. If it's on the ground it would still touch the unit and be forced to stop, even if it would move over it after that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Fearspect wrote:Bugs N Orks is correct, ramming/tank shocking with a skimmer can be played like skipping a stone on water: you pick when it touches down along its path and when it skips over things.

A skipping stone changes direction and is not moving straight ahead, which would not be allowed by the tank-shock rules.

Jidmah wrote:

Fearspect wrote:Bugs N Orks is correct, ramming/tank shocking with a skimmer can be played like skipping a stone on water: you pick when it touches down along its path and when it skips over things.

A skipping stone changes direction and is not moving straight ahead, which would not be allowed by the tank-shock rules.

Take a look at the second Rulebook FAQ answer I posted. If skimmers cannot selectively skip over units while TSing (which is your claim, unless I am mistaken), how would it ever be possilbe for a skimmer to end up over a friendly or enemy unit?

Good point, though enemy unit would still be possible. While not 100% solid RAW(could be aimed solely at large skimmers), good enough for me.

It is in fact 100% RAW to play that way.

If so, please quote the corresponding rules.

p71, Moving a skimmer:

A skimmer can move over friendly and enemy models...

Can is not the same as must. As such, you can also choose when not to move over them.

Going back to the original question. I think there is 1 circumstance that will result in the squad being destroyed.

If you have the entire board covered in models and impassible terrain and you tank shock from reserves, the unit you will tank shock will be destroyed as they have no place to move.

Fearspect wrote:p71, Moving a skimmer:

A skimmer can move over friendly and enemy models...

Can is not the same as must. As such, you can also choose when not to move over them.

If you move over your unit you still come in contact with it. Or not.
If moving over your unit is not coming into contact with the model, you are not moving in a straight line, breaking tank shock rules.
If moving over your unit is coming into contact with the model, then the tank shock rules stop your vehicle.

RAW skimmers can not tank shock a unit behind friendly models or an enemy vehicle.
However, the FAQ quote is good enough for me to conclude a reasonable RAI.

Grakmar wrote:Going back to the original question. I think there is 1 circumstance that will result in the squad being destroyed.

If you have the entire board covered in models and impassible terrain and you tank shock from reserves, the unit you will tank shock will be destroyed as they have no place to move.

Actually the unit would not be destroyed, the game would just break. As the situation is quite impossible, we couldn't care less.

Oh, I see what you're hung up on, Jidmah. You think that the straight line includes no vertical movement. I don't understand how you can still take that position when those two FAQ clarifications basically state that vertical movement isn't accounted for in the straight line.