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Actually, neither say anything like that.

A straight line does include no vertical movement per definition. Otherwise, it's a curved line.

You might want to stop posting your opinion on rules without backup as if it were RAW, that's a violation of the Tenets of You Make Da Call.

The rules are those two FAQ quotes from earlier. They would be impossible situations with your definition.

Q: If a skimmer tank shocks or rams an enemy unit that
is in terrain must it take a Dangerous Terrain test? (p71)
A: Only if it begins or ends its move in terrain.

Q: If a skimmer is forced to stop moving by a Death or
Glory! attack whilst over a friendly or enemy model
what happens? (p71)
A: Move the skimmer the shortest possible distance so
that it is no longer over any models.

Stop being so obtuse, it's all right there.

Where?

Skimmers actually ignore penalties for terrain when moving over it, they do not ignore models. FAQ answer is consistent.

A skimmer can easily end it's move over enemy models, because they don't move out of the way, but let it pass.
FAQ answer is consistent.

Vendettas and Storm Ravens can tank shock over friendly models without coming in contact with them, as the base is ignored for that purpose.
FAQ answer is consistent.

So, how is all of this not RAW again?

Or... perhaps you can realize that the 'line' never does wobble as you seem to think during the movement. The skimmer makes a perfectly straight line, exactly at table height, and simply chooses to selectively ignore certain models and terrain along the way.

You may not ignore models. The rule doesn't say that.

By your interpretation you would come into contact with your own model and the tank shock rules tell you to stop moving right then, before you move over it.

Jidmah wrote:Where?

Skimmers actually ignore penalties for terrain when moving over it, they do not ignore models. FAQ answer is consistent.

A skimmer can easily end it's move over enemy models, because they don't move out of the way, but let it pass.
FAQ answer is consistent.

Vendettas and Storm Ravens can tank shock over friendly models without coming in contact with them, as the base is ignored for that purpose.
FAQ answer is consistent.

So, how is all of this not RAW again?

Stormraven isn't a tank. The only way it can tank shock is if gets magna grappled and dragged through a unit.

I already quoted you the rule that allows a skimmer to ignore models on the previous page. You can't contact a model you are moving over.

You can tank shock with a skimmer by going over models. It is still a straight line as a line is a 2D object so therefore you can only look at it in two dimmensions so say the vehcile is pointed at the squad it wants to tanks shock it cannot go left or right as that would make it a curve. It can go forward.

To the OP I would say that when you TS your opponents squad would have to move away from the vehicle using as short a move as possible and stay 1" away from enemy (your) models if for whatever reason they cannot do that I would say they were destroyed as no rule gives you permission to ignore enemy models.

Fearspect wrote:I already quoted you the rule that allows a skimmer to ignore models on the previous page. You can't contact a model you are moving over.

You didn't, because it doesn't exist. There is no rule that you can't contact a model that you are about to move over, if the skimmer is moving in a straight line on the table.

You realize you are arguing the point of these rule being perfectly clear by RAW without providing actual perfectly clear rules?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Akroma06 wrote:You can tank shock with a skimmer by going over models. It is still a straight line as a line is a 2D object so therefore you can only look at it in two dimmensions so say the vehcile is pointed at the squad it wants to tanks shock it cannot go left or right as that would make it a curve. It can go forward.

That's wrong, a line is a one-dimensional object but can be defined in three dimensional space. If you ignore the third dimension for gaming purposes, you would contact your models while moving over them and be forced to stop.

It what world could you possibly avoid something and contact it at the same time?

My mistake, Jidmah, was thinking there could be a rules discussion here. You got me, excellent troll.

Calling me a troll does not make you right.

If you are moving in a straight line you are not avoiding the model.

If you are avoiding the model by physically moving over it, you may not tank shock the model behind it, because that would be a change of direction.

Why can't the skimmer start at it's maximum height, aim at the enemy models behind the friendly models in question, and charge at them at lets say, a 60 degree angle? It would pass over the heads of the friendly units while still making contact with the enemy units, and this would be a straight line the entire time...

This is what RAW says.

However, there is this question in the FAQ:
Q: If a skimmer is forced to stop moving by a Death or
Glory! attack whilst over a friendly or enemy model
what happens? (p71)
A: Move the skimmer the shortest possible distance so
that it is no longer over any models.

While a model can end up tank shocking over friendly models by RAW (magna grapple, for example), in my opinion GW is highly unlikely to remember such a thing. Thus they probably mean to ignore the contact rule, or they are simply being stupid and forgot that skimmers can't end up over friendly models. In my opinion, it's probably the first. However, nothing of this impacts RAW.

W40k General FAQ

Q: If a skimmer tank shocks or rams an enemy unit that
is in terrain must it take a Dangerous Terrain test? (p71)
A: Only if it begins or ends its move in terrain.

Implies that it can avoid terrain during a tank shock, thus it can avoid models during a tank shock. As awkward as that is logically :/

It doesn't ignore or move around terrain. Skimmer rules tell you to not suffer any penalties while moving through it.

Jidmah wrote:

Fearspect wrote:I already quoted you the rule that allows a skimmer to ignore models on the previous page. You can't contact a model you are moving over.

You didn't, because it doesn't exist. There is no rule that you can't contact a model that you are about to move over, if the skimmer is moving in a straight line on the table.

You realize you are arguing the point of these rule being perfectly clear by RAW without providing actual perfectly clear rules?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Akroma06 wrote:You can tank shock with a skimmer by going over models. It is still a straight line as a line is a 2D object so therefore you can only look at it in two dimmensions so say the vehcile is pointed at the squad it wants to tanks shock it cannot go left or right as that would make it a curve. It can go forward.

That's wrong, a line is a one-dimensional object but can be defined in three dimensional space. If you ignore the third dimension for gaming purposes, you would contact your models while moving over them and be forced to stop.

Seriously? A line is 3 D?
This whole thing is the worst extent of rules lawyering ever. A skimmer doesn't ignore terrain it goes over it. You don't have to take a check unless you land in it.

What I was getting at is that defines what "move over" means in the context of skimmer movement.

That said, I'm still inclined to agree that it's not a 'straight line' I just happened across that FAQ entry. I'd imagine, from a logical stand point, that you'd have to intersect your own units unless the tank was starting on a hill or elevation high enough to move over them.

Then again, when has logic ever been applied to this game

Edit:
While it's not RAW, INAT seems to agree with the ruling that it can be selective. Go figure :/

RB.71B.01 – Q: Can a skimmer performing a tank
shock selectively choose to fly over enemy units (and
vehicles) that it doesn’t want to tank shock or ram?
How about flying over friendly units or intervening
terrain in order to tank shock an enemy unit?
A: Yes, a skimmer may selectively choose to move over any
friendly/enemy units and moves over intervening terrain
without penalty (although it still has to take a dangerous
terrain test if it ends the move in terrain as normal)
[clarification].

I agree with Jidmah...

Otherwise, practically no units on the table would be safe against tankshocking...

I had this happen before:
I had a squad of orks camping out in a 3 walled-3 story ruins by an objective. The 3 sides were facing the opponents. No enemy model had LOS of this particular unit. However, my Eldar opponent tried to TS my orks by going OVER the 3 storied ruins to try to push me off the objective. I said he couldn't do that since he wasn't moving in a straight line... in the end, he agreed with me.

Actually he can move threw it as long as he doesn't turn after or during the move. The skimmer rules say he can do so without needing a test unless he stops in terrain. Whembly your example would be no different if a BA Rhino tried it except the BA player would have to test for DT.

whembly wrote:I agree with Jidmah...

Otherwise, practically no units on the table would be safe against tankshocking...

I had this happen before:
I had a squad of orks camping out in a 3 walled-3 story ruins by an objective. The 3 sides were facing the opponents. No enemy model had LOS of this particular unit. However, my Eldar opponent tried to TS my orks by going OVER the 3 storied ruins to try to push me off the objective. I said he couldn't do that since he wasn't moving in a straight line... in the end, he agreed with me.

Well, you were wrong. The walls of a ruin are difficult terrain, but are free to be moved through. The skimmer could fly right through the wall, TS your unit, and land on the other side.

Jidmah don't you realize how ridiculous you are being?

Skimmers can't just go in a straight line by your definition. They don't have any wheels. They land when their movement is done, and they have to raise off the ground to move. Even if it is only a few millimeters, they have to move UP to get off the ground and move; they can't just go straight without moving up like you are saying.

By your definition, it is illegal for ANY skimmer to tank shock under ANY circumstances because they have to make a vertical movement off of the ground first before they can even make their straight line attack.

The fact that you were even allowing skimmers like a vendetta or stormraven to do this because of their base and denying it to eldar because of theirs, totally ignores RAW.

You don't really have a just argument here; you're trying to argue the fluff of the skimmer instead of the rules that are given

I agree with Yakface and the council :

INAT v.5.0.1 wrote:RB.71B.01 – Q: Can a skimmer performing a tank
shock selectively choose to fly over enemy units (and
vehicles) that it doesn’t want to tank shock or ram?
How about flying over friendly units or intervening
terrain in order to tank shock an enemy unit?

A: Yes, a skimmer may selectively choose to move over any
friendly/enemy units and moves over intervening terrain
without penalty (although it still has to take a dangerous
terrain test if it ends the move in terrain as normal)
[clarification].

While I understand the INAT is not accepted as an official FAQ, it is a good guideline with how to read into certain rules and get a foothold from which to discuss.

While I don't always agree with the INAT and while it isn't RAW of an official FAQ. It works really well this time.

Grakmar wrote:

whembly wrote:I agree with Jidmah...

Otherwise, practically no units on the table would be safe against tankshocking...

I had this happen before:
I had a squad of orks camping out in a 3 walled-3 story ruins by an objective. The 3 sides were facing the opponents. No enemy model had LOS of this particular unit. However, my Eldar opponent tried to TS my orks by going OVER the 3 storied ruins to try to push me off the objective. I said he couldn't do that since he wasn't moving in a straight line... in the end, he agreed with me.

Well, you were wrong. The walls of a ruin are difficult terrain, but are free to be moved through. The skimmer could fly right through the wall, TS your unit, and land on the other side.

So all he'd have to do is make a DT check?



No wonder no one plays foot list.

I'll tell him that he could've done it. My bad...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Akroma06 wrote:Actually he can move threw it as long as he doesn't turn after or during the move. The skimmer rules say he can do so without needing a test unless he stops in terrain. Whembly your example would be no different if a BA Rhino tried it except the BA player would have to test for DT.

I see what you're saying... I guess I got hung up on the "move a straight line" part...

whembly wrote:

So all he'd have to do is make a DT check?



No wonder no one plays foot list.

I'll tell him that he could've done it. My bad...

It's even sillier than that!!! With a non-skimmer, you have to take a DT check when you move through difficult or dangerous terrain. But, with a skimmer, you only need to check if you start or end in difficult or dangerous terrain.

So, depending on where his skimmer ended up, he wouldn't even have to take a DT check!!!

And, don't worry about getting the rule wrong. It is one of the situations that drastically deviates from common sense.

Akroma - you didnt read Jidmah at all right there. A line is, by definition, one D, but you can define a line in three dimensions - as in, where it goes in 3D space. Thats how the real world works, by the way. So, your saying a line is a 2D object is categorically wrong, and Jidmah is entirely correct.

So, you are told you can move in a straight line only when tank shocking. BY DEFINITION this is 1 Dimensional - you pick a direction and move in it, no deviation allowed except along your single axis of movement.

The Skimer rules state Skimmers avoid *models* by "moving over" them - meaning they *must* "move over" the other model - breaking the straight line requirement of Tank Shock.

Understand yet? This is why it is played inconsistently - by the rules a skimmer cannot tankshock a unit behind a friendly unit, as they *must* move off the table to do so, breaking the tank shock rules.

Thanks about clearing that up nos - I was beginning to lose faith in this forum.

Akroma, omerak, please look at my picture again and read the text attached to it.

Akroma, right now I'm writing a program about ray intersection, which are, ironically, defined by one dimensional lines in three dimensional space. Funny how my program can display an calculate something you claim doesn't exist. Check your math before calling people "worst ruleslawyer". And the Tenets of You Make Da Call.

omerakk wrote:Jidmah don't you realize how ridiculous you are being?

Skimmers can't just go in a straight line by your definition. They don't have any wheels. They land when their movement is done, and they have to raise off the ground to move. Even if it is only a few millimeters, they have to move UP to get off the ground and move; they can't just go straight without moving up like you are saying.

By your definition, it is illegal for ANY skimmer to tank shock under ANY circumstances because they have to make a vertical movement off of the ground first before they can even make their straight line attack.

Skimmers don't need to "lift up" to tank shock, as you were not allowed to place them on the ground in the first place. You are supposed to place them on their flying base and you are not allowed to remove it unless the skimmer becomes wrecked or immobilized. In either case it can't tank-shock anyways. By RAW, to tank shock you just move your mode in a straight line from starting position in the direction until the final distance is reached. No lifting up, no removing the base, so curves, no loopings. If at any time during that move, you touch one of your own models or an enemy vehicle, you stop.

The fact that you were even allowing skimmers like a vendetta or stormraven to do this because of their base and denying it to eldar because of theirs, totally ignores RAW.

Don't tell people about RAW if you can't quote any rules. A vendetta can not possibly move into contact with a guardsman, unless you are flying through a building and the guardsman is on the second floor. Because, by RAW, the base for skimmers is ignored unless stated otherwise. A wave serpent can not fly over a dire avenger, because it has a smaller base and thus the hull would touch the avenger. End of story, this is RAW.

You don't really have a just argument here; you're trying to argue the fluff of the skimmer instead of the rules that are given

Funny, as you talk about landing which is pure fluff, while I merely quoted the tank shock rules. Hypocritical at the very least. No part of my argument is fluff, you might want to reread the rules you are discussing.

As for whether or not skimmer tanks can tank shock and choose to pass over friendly (or enemy units for that matter) during part of their tank shock move, the FAQ question/answer that GW pulled from the INAT regarding a skimmer getting Death-or-Gloried while over a friendly unit while tank shocking totally seals the deal. That question was in the INAT because we ruled that skimmers could indeed move over friendly units while tank shocking and because of that ruling, that situation can occur.

It is impossible for that situation to occur unless a skimmer IS allowed to move over friendly units while tank shocking. So the answer is absolutely clear: You can choose to pass over friendly models while tank shocking/ramming with a skimmer tank.


Now, back to the original question:

If a unit is totally surrounded and then a skimmer tank chooses to tank shock on top of that unit, what happens?

Nobody knows because the rules don't cover that situation. However, there is absolutely no legitimate presumption to assume that the unit is destroyed because it cannot move out of the way. There is NOTHING in any of the rules that dictates such a situation...I guess people are transposing the Fall Back rules onto the Tank Shock rules perhaps?

The reality is, there is no solution so anything you can come up with is a valid solution provided you can agree upon it:


1) The Tank is not allowed to Tank Shock the unit in that case, as because the models can't move out of the way, the Tank would be ending its move over impassable terrain (enemy models), which is not allowed, so the Tank Shock move would end before it reaches the enemy unit. This interpretation doesn't break any rules (and kind of makes sense in a round-about way), so is probably the best bet.

or

2) The unit moves the minimum distance needed to move out of the way, including through intervening enemy models. This, of course, breaks some rules, so is probably not the best choice.

or

3) The unit moves the minimum distance needed, including pushing the surrounding enemy models out of the way the minimum distance needed to make room. This doesn't break any rules, but does 'make up' a rule (moving the surrounding models to make room), so is probably not the best bet (but is better than #2).

or

4) The unit is destroyed because it can't move out of the way. This doesn't break any rules but it makes some up (units are destroyed if they can't move when required), and is therefore probably not the best bet.



So in short, my personal opinion given that the situation is totally FUBAR is to say that since the target unit cannot move out of the way, then the vehicle cannot end up there (as enemy models are impassable terrain) and may not tank shock them in this situation.

Didn't think of that, 1) is probably the best solution.

Looking at yakface's options and hearing it out loud 1 does seem to be the best option. The instance that this could actually occur is very slim and short of wiping them out serves no point. I mean you have the squad surrounded and if your using a skimmer you have three options to wipe them out anyway. Use "FRFSRF" and lasgun 'em down, poison 4+ them to death or use bladestorm (I think thats what its called don't play Eldar).