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Here is something to think about. When the IoM finally dose fall into oblivion, will the SMs survive?

Quite likely.

In fact i'd quite like this to happen as a story progression.

Most SM chapters are semi-independent anyway, with their own worlds/fleets/deathstar and support system.

Some *cough smurfs cough* chapters practically have a pocket empire anyway, and the Black Templars are a huge fleet with no home base

Why wouldn't they be able to? After 10 000 years the traitor legions are still around...

I don't think so.

Simply because there exists no loyalist chapter I can recall that wouldn't willingly die to defend it. They would have been killed by whatever threat brought the Imperium down.

Void__Dragon wrote:I don't think so.

Simply because there exists no loyalist chapter I can recall that wouldn't willingly die to defend it. They would have been killed by whatever threat brought the Imperium down.

I dunno bro, the Space Marines are loyal to the Emperor and MANKIND. if the Imperium itself collapsed but those two survived the SMs could survive without the Imperium of Man. Let's face it the actual body of the Imperium has little to do with the Emperor and more to do with power, corruption, and a bureaucratic machine. A coalition of worlds supported by SM and the Mechanicus could survive indefinitely as the lags in response by the size of IoM would be cut out by local calls for help.

nomotog wrote:Here is something to think about. When the IoM finally dose fall into oblivion, will the SMs survive?

That will not happened, as long there is the Emperor there will be the Imperium.
And the answer is yes, SM chapters have their own forges, facilities etc...
And I am sure some AM worlds will still be out there and they will also have access to that.

But for the Imperium to fall you must break every IG Regiment, every SM chapter, every AM and every SoB and Inquisition force out there, and that's a lot ( not to mention that most of the Imperium never sensed war of any kind ). And for that you need large force, and when I say large I mean large. And only Orks, Daemons, Tyranids and Necrons ( until the next codex ) have force to do that. And they all fight among themselves.

If we're talking about the death of the Emperor, there would be no Astronomicon, as such, SMs who hold sovereignty over their own worlds would be OK for a little while, until something (hive fleet tendril, demonic incursion, whatever) that they couldn't win against without support turned up.

But the fleet based chapters would be screwed. No navigation, no calling in reinforcement.

Interesting question though.

Couldn't the Imperium establish a large psychic choir, from those normally sacrificed to him, to act as the Big E's replacement?

If it did ever fall many would die defending it of course, but others would be prepared for the end like the Ultramarines were during the Heresy. They basically have an Empire already. Perhaps an alliance with the Mechanicus would be negotiated, as without the Imperium they wouldn't have enough forces to defend their forge worlds. I mean if those traitors can do it so can the loyal ones.

Yes the Alpha Legion will live on forever. So yes techinically the SM will outlive the IOM. I think the IOM will be destroyed eventually but I believe the forces of Chaos will not be the ones to destroy nor be affected by its true demise.

It's also worth remembering that many chapters rely on tithes and support from the Ad MEeh in terms of weapons, ammo and other equipment.

Well, 40k is mired in, umm, 40k so we'll never know.

I think SM's will continue, they have the ability to produce Marine replacements so there is no shortage of same more or less. Barring catastrophic loss a la Crimson Fists anyway...

Ultramar is a great example of what could happen, small empires of mankind scattered across the galaxy waiting for the next 'Great Crusade' to unite them.

Alkasyn wrote:It's also worth remembering that many chapters rely on tithes and support from the Ad MEeh in terms of weapons, ammo and other equipment.

But that is under the current system of organisation, if the IoM was to collapse many SM chapters would expand their protection spheres to incorroporate more worlds, allowing them to increase in size and be fully self sufficient and single small empires.

They'll be around for a while but without the support of the Imperium they'll all fall eventually, either to Orks/Tyranids/Necrons or Chaos. While the Chapters are semi-independent they still rely heavily on the various forces of the Imperium for support in most campaigns. Simply hiding away somewhere and not fighting is not an option either, Space Marines were bred to fight and with no war the Chapters will eventually tear themselves apart.

Nope. It's more likely that the Imperium of Man will outlast Space Marines, because of the Marines' reproduction problems and raw material cost of reproduction, combined with their dangerous lifestyle, will make them eventually slowly die out.

Without the Imperial Guard and Imperial Navy, every world they rely on for equipment (and providing enough armour, ships and weaponry for a chapter, particularly one that's taking heavy casualties, requires an entire forge world as it is) would fall. Space Marines aren't meant to operate in defensive roles, and when they do they need support for their primary tactics to work. So if the Imperium falls, everything the Space Marines need to survive will fall with it.

Space Marines will outlast the IoM. They will adapt to survive. If chaos Space Marines can do it so can others. They will not have the support structure they had before and thus will not be the force they are today but I think they will pull through.

TrollPie wrote:Without the Imperial Guard and Imperial Navy, every world they rely on for equipment (and providing enough armour, ships and weaponry for a chapter, particularly one that's taking heavy casualties, requires an entire forge world as it is) would fall. Space Marines aren't meant to operate in defensive roles, and when they do they need support for their primary tactics to work. So if the Imperium falls, everything the Space Marines need to survive will fall with it.

The IoM isn't required to raise regiments of troops or manufacture equipment. Both of those can be accomplished without the IoM. A system with manufacturing capability, population, and space marines would be set. As a part of the larger 40k universe eventually they'd be overrun. But IF the IoM did collapse and nothing replaced it the SM could survive. If the Imperium as a political entity ceased to exist...if the entire infrastructure went down it wouldn't even matter.

Yes, Space Marines are very much set up to survive any sort of galactic cataclysm.

AustonT wrote:

TrollPie wrote:Without the Imperial Guard and Imperial Navy, every world they rely on for equipment (and providing enough armour, ships and weaponry for a chapter, particularly one that's taking heavy casualties, requires an entire forge world as it is) would fall. Space Marines aren't meant to operate in defensive roles, and when they do they need support for their primary tactics to work. So if the Imperium falls, everything the Space Marines need to survive will fall with it.

The IoM isn't required to raise regiments of troops or manufacture equipment. Both of those can be accomplished without the IoM. A system with manufacturing capability, population, and space marines would be set. As a part of the larger 40k universe eventually they'd be overrun. But IF the IoM did collapse and nothing replaced it the SM could survive. If the Imperium as a political entity ceased to exist...if the entire infrastructure went down it wouldn't even matter.

I meant there would be noone to defend those planets, unless you get the Marines themeselves who are horribly unsuited to defensive roles.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Although to be honest the arguement is pointless, since with untold trillions of people in the Imperium a few billion are bound to pull through.

One more thing I was thinking...
If IoM came crushing down wouldn't all remaining Space Marines defend Sol System?

Brother Coa wrote:One more thing I was thinking...
If IoM came crushing down wouldn't all remaining Space Marines defend Sol System?

Not if they couldn't reach it like during Horus's siege of Terra. Most would likely rush to it immediately, but there will be those that thought like Guillman did and defend the pieces of humanity.

Nicholas wrote:
Not if they couldn't reach it like during Horus's siege of Terra. Most would likely rush to it immediately, but there will be those that thought like Guillman did and defend the pieces of humanity.

That would not be the case here, IoM would not go crushing down for several years like during the Heresy - but in thousands of years. And after Marines use all their power to slow them down as they march toward Terra they would surely use all their remaining force in defending Terra and the Emperor's throne.

Who's to say the Astronomican doesn't just go out like a blown bulb?

If it did the nav-beacon for the whole imperium just vanished, which would leave a good chunk of the IOM's forces stranded.

As they'll never let Big E die, we'll never find out if he fades slowly or pops his clogs in an instant. Either is equally possible.

You also seem to be of the misapprehension that all the SM chapters are close to Terra, and each other. They aren't. They are scattered across the IOM, or they'd never get to a warzone in time.

Brother Coa wrote:[Necrons ( until the next codex ) have force to do that. And they all fight among themselves.

Actually, next codex apparently all the Necrons will be awake.

And the Necrons and Tyranids don't fight amongst themselves, at least they have yet to in the fluff.

Barring a couple of differences in opinion for the Lords anyhow.. No actual war between Tomb Worlds.

Nid fleets do fight each other, but the victor absorbs all the good stuff and biomass from the loser, and adds it to their own, so it's no real loss..

Ascalam wrote:Nid fleets do fight each other, but the victor absorbs all the good stuff and biomass from the loser, and adds it to their own, so it's no real loss..

Oh yeah, I forgot about that.

That's more like just combining the fleets though, lol.

I think most chapters that are fleet based would book it for Terra if the imperium started to crumble, to defend the Emperor, Mars and the only way to "mass" produce marines (the admech).

I think I'm with melissa on this one. Space marines attrition rate to reproduction rate seems to be sending them on a downward spiral. Not to mention their technological stagnation will put them at a disadvantage to races that advance, or at least multiply!

Then by rights they should be there now, as it's been crumbling for a long time..

Also that would mean abandoning countless active warzones to book it to Terra.