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Thank the Emperor Terra and other worlds are out of danger because there is one power that is much stronger than every xeno and Chaos force combine together - GW's reluctance to move the story forward.

wizardofgore wrote:Space Marines will outlast the IoM. They will adapt to survive.

They won't be able to adapt to having no bullets, or no chemicals to put in their recruits, etc


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Ascalam wrote:Then by rights they should be there now, as it's been crumbling for a long time..

Quite a few chapters are far lower than the 1000 Marine limit. In fact, we probably don't acually have a total of 1000 chapters, either-- with so many being wiped out in the lore.

TrollPie wrote:

AustonT wrote:

TrollPie wrote:Without the Imperial Guard and Imperial Navy, every world they rely on for equipment (and providing enough armour, ships and weaponry for a chapter, particularly one that's taking heavy casualties, requires an entire forge world as it is) would fall. Space Marines aren't meant to operate in defensive roles, and when they do they need support for their primary tactics to work. So if the Imperium falls, everything the Space Marines need to survive will fall with it.

The IoM isn't required to raise regiments of troops or manufacture equipment. Both of those can be accomplished without the IoM. A system with manufacturing capability, population, and space marines would be set. As a part of the larger 40k universe eventually they'd be overrun. But IF the IoM did collapse and nothing replaced it the SM could survive. If the Imperium as a political entity ceased to exist...if the entire infrastructure went down it wouldn't even matter.

I meant there would be noone to defend those planets, unless you get the Marines themeselves who are horribly unsuited to defensive roles.

Unless chapter's go and use Ultramar as an example instead of an execption. Who defends those planets now? the IG and the Navy thats who, but all the IG and Navy are is just men and women recruited and armed by the IoM, all you have to do is replace the IoM with more localised goverments and unions lead by Space Marines and you would get system defence forces made up of human and marine soldiers.

Add this to the fact that if IoM fell (most likely from the destruction of Terra) Mars would fall to as a war in the Sol System would involve them too. This would lead to the same loss of centralised contol over forge worlds as with the rest of the IoM's worlds, this would allow for far stronger ties between all the bodies within the Space Marine 'empires' due to a reliance on local worlds rather than a distant body of force. This type of think has been seen through history after the fall of once great empires.

Considering human systems were self sufficient for millenia while cut off from the I'm sure Space Marines would do just fine in isolated pockets.

I think that many SM chapters would be okay (at least the ones with their own interstellar system would). However, some of the more adherent chapters would have some difficulty because they would have to expand (to the point of being a legion again), and of course the chapters that adhere closest to the codex astartes would think of this as heresy.

This is explained in an episode of Star Trek TNG. Eventually the gene seed will wilt without new DNA. SM can't outlive IoM. They are cohesive entities in their society. IoM are the SM's. Now if you said Tyranid v IoM If all the mosquitoes on earth became the size of a Shetland pony... I think that analogy makes its own point.

Commissar_Tiberius wrote:This is explained in an episode of Star Trek TNG. Eventually the gene seed will wilt without new DNA. SM can't outlive IoM. They are cohesive entities in their society. IoM are the SM's. Now if you said Tyranid v IoM If all the mosquitoes on earth became the size of a Shetland pony... I think that analogy makes its own point.

And yet you are forgetting a very key point, the fall of the IoM does not mean the total destruction of humanity, the IoM could be replaced by any number of empires just like the empires it replaced.

True, but what chance will that non-united empires have against the forces of the disorder?

The Imperium doesn't have to fall in some sort of final, apocalyptic last stand. There's a dozen ways it could end including simply collapsing under the weight of its own bureaucracy.

I imagine its collapse would be more Soviet Union style internal melt down, rather than Slugga Boyz landing in Terra. With resulting smaller Empires appearing. Which in lore could last and fight off Xeno's. Look to the Tau for an example of a small Empire hanging on in there.

What would be interesting would be how the SM react to this. I could hardly imagine them throwing down bolters yelling "War's over boys!" but I couldn't imagine them working with any other human organisation or Empire other than the IoM.

Hmm... food for thought.

I'm certain that a huge invasion of some faction is going to be a major factor. Abbaddon and his Crusade could potentially, but it won't do it alone.

I highly doubt anyone will let anything near Terra - if IoM all came crashing down the last battle (with everyone from space marine to mechanics priest to normal cleaners) would be fought in the holy Terra - its the emperors home no one will let ANYTHING happen to it, heck I can see ultramarine abandoning Ultramar to protect Terra.

(I swear I am gonna start calling earth - Terra from now one it sounds so much better)

Brother Coa wrote:True, but what chance will that non-united empires have against the forces of the disorder?

One thing about 'the forces of disorder' is that they are disordered. They have a tendancy to fight amongst themselves.

I think if the Tau can servive as well as they have, human small empires will be able to do the same (as already shown in fluff, with lots of non-IoM human empires dotted about the place).