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Recently I've been hearing some rumblings about IG Stormtrooper squads being taken sometimes for sacrificial melta units. I am still under the impression that they are terrible. Has something changed with the recent books/meta to make them actually worth it?

Personally I like stormtroopers. They are not a must-have, but they are a good distraction force.

First way to use them: Deepstriking suicide meltas. They are quite reliable due to the rerollable deviation. But an easy killpoint. And it is an obvious and predictable use. And you know what happens if those 2 meltas dont do their work...

Second way: Outflanking backfield harrass unit: (Chimera and "behind enemy lines" operation) they can get past the enemys main force to vulnerable support elements and take sideshots to vehicles with meltas and chimeras multilaser to force him into a deadly crossfire. Very efficient and underestimated. Especially aginst enemy MSU.

Of course you can get along with melta/plasma/Flamer-party in chimeras and some Vendetta and Manticore support. But stormtroopers are close to guard top tier imho. More efficient in killing performance than veterans. I would place them in the league of PBS, Blobs and Hydras. Manticore, Vendettas, PCS with 4 flamers and CCS outclass them though concerning killing potential.

-Nazdreg- wrote:More efficient in killing performance than veterans. I would place them in the league of PBS, Blobs and Hydras. Manticore, Vendettas, PCS with 4 flamers and CCS outclass them though concerning killing potential.

Could you explain further? I don't understand the gained "killing potential" from a 105/160 point ST unit vs a 100/155 point veteran unit that has 1 more gun and 5 more guys.

When you have to go through X tarpit (an opponent has a blob or two protecting a russ or a basilisk or a manticore etc), sometimes it is worth the stormtrooper units cost. A friend used them recently in a game to really great effect, but i feel they got lucky on the scatterdice. A fair few people seem to rate them quite highly though...

The Meltavet rush is predictable, and using airships to rush them forward particularly risky and expensive.

Also, Scouting Stormtroopers with Chimeras lets you provide cover for your army on turn 1 (scout+smoke) and allows you to be more aggressive in deployment. Infiltrating Stormtroopers help shut down enemy scout rushes in turn. By running a pair of Special Weapon Squads and Gunships alongside the Stormtroopers in turn, you attain flexible deployment in turn (and of course you can always use the gunships to threaten a Stormtrooper Deepstrike). It's an exceptionally synergestic combo.

I normally use a 5 man melta stormtrooper squad and a 5 man plasma one. The meltas are great for getting the rear end of vehicles, and I use the plasmas to do surgical strikes against terminators. If there's not termies around, then they hit devastators/longfangs/whatevers in the rear of the army.

They're good if for no other reason that simply the fear factor. If you can make an opponent second guess themselves even once due to them, then you've gotten an edge.

Nothing changed, so they're still excellent.

daedalus wrote:I normally use a 5 man melta stormtrooper squad and a 5 man plasma one. The meltas are great for getting the rear end of vehicles, and I use the plasmas to do surgical strikes against terminators. If there's not termies around, then they hit devastators/longfangs/whatevers in the rear of the army.

They're good if for no other reason that simply the fear factor. If you can make an opponent second guess themselves even once due to them, then you've gotten an edge.

I take it your not the biggest fan of the imperium then...

For 105 pts you get basically the same effectiveness of naked 10 man vet squad with grenadiers doctine - except the hotshot guns of a regular stormtrooper is THREE times more likely (21% as opposed to 7%) to inflict an unsaved wound on MEQ. You get excellent deployment options as stated by someone earlier, and you also get both frag and krak grenades, and a pistol/ccw in every man's wargear. They have double the attacks of vets in close combat! Vets with carapace armour work out to be 10pts each, but add in krak grenades, ap3 weapons, scout/DS/infiltrate, and the ability to make every single shot pinning on the first round of firing or to re-roll deepstrike scatter.. Mate, these guys are machines. The skill of the player often.determines their effectiveness though..

Edit:
Damn it i was using 105 pts to represent 5 unupgraded stormtroopers, when that actually refers to the 5 man w/ 2 meltas. The thing is, add one man to make it 101 pts, for 6 stormtroopers. Now compare to vets with grenadiers!

Spacecookie92 wrote:

daedalus wrote:I normally use a 5 man melta stormtrooper squad and a 5 man plasma one. The meltas are great for getting the rear end of vehicles, and I use the plasmas to do surgical strikes against terminators. If there's not termies around, then they hit devastators/longfangs/whatevers in the rear of the army.

They're good if for no other reason that simply the fear factor. If you can make an opponent second guess themselves even once due to them, then you've gotten an edge.

I take it your not the biggest fan of the imperium then...

I play to my meta. They also work well against Tyranid warriors and Warp Spiders.

They are a great for DS and shoot the heck out of something.
Dont compare them to Vets, they have a different roll (Scoring and sits in Chimera with Melta Guns)

Why not compare them to vets? They are similar stats and options. Just more flexible and killy. The only downside is only 2 special weapons slots and as you say not scoring. For one less special weapon, their regular guns are far better.. And even though this doesnt really count, I only ever play annihilation games, never objectives or kill point varieties.

kyranzor wrote:Why not compare them to vets? They are similar stats and options. Just more flexible and killy. The only downside is only 2 special weapons slots and as you say not scoring. For one less special weapon, their regular guns are far better.. And even though this doesnt really count, I only ever play annihilation games, never objectives or kill point varieties.

Having one less special weapons makes them less ideal at sitting in a Chimera, that and you are already paying for their DS and Infiltrate ability.
Vets get 3 special weapons so they are at home in Chimera's.
Play a few objective games and you ll see why being scoring unit or not differentiate the two.

Deepstrike means they dont need a delivery truck (chimera). This saves points. And with carapace armour they are less in need of a metal box too. Seeing as most of their action occurs in close distance, the sgt with a plasma pistol can help bridge the gap of less special weapons.. Can the stormtroopers contest/draw objectives? This can be enough to 'not lose' an objective game?

kyranzor wrote:Deepstrike means they dont need a delivery truck (chimera). This saves points. And with carapace armour they are less in need of a metal box too. Seeing as most of their action occurs in close distance, the sgt with a plasma pistol can help bridge the gap of less special weapons.. Can the stormtroopers contest/draw objectives? This can be enough to 'not lose' an objective game?

Yes, though you idealy want to WIN the game, not just getting a draw, unless you consistently table your opponents.
Most people dont have trouble wiping them off objectives, carapace do not increase your T3 models by much, DSing Storm Troopers almost never live past a turn in my experience.
Chimera plus Veterans on the other hand brings more firepower and is far more durable.

Stormtroopers are meh in mech vet builds aimed at being WAAC tourney builds.

But in a power blob build, stormtroopers with melta or plasma are great suicide units to take out a particularly hard to kill transport or MC. A solid choice overall, people just keep comparing them to vets...which they aren't, and fill different roles.

Having suicide melta stormtroopers come down and surprise a blender-naught or a landraider carrying a deathstar unit is definitely a good choice. Ive done it before, it was hilarious for me but not for the gk player!

One thing i will say is that overall stormtroopers are NOT a good choice for low point battles.. I've tried many times to try at low point games only for something to go horribly wrong.

Right you can't compare Stormtroopers to vets. They have a different purpose with the army even if they look very simmiller on paper. Stormtroopers is a special ops style unit design for specific goals while the vets is a beefed up infantry squad.

Stormtroopers are designed to have a mission in mind and use their special abilities like deepstrike or scout to get into position without risk of been gunned down on the way up the board. They get their weapons on target this way instead of a chimera. If you don't use the delivery methods they have available then don't take the Stormtroopers because you're paying a premium for what a vet unit could do for cheaper.

The effective roles for storm troopers differ from person to person but i've a few favourite roles they tend to fill. Suicide melta. Thats the most common one. 5 guys with two melta.

A personal favourite though is to deepstrike behind the enemy army to take out the supporting heavy fire of my opponant after his main force has started to head towards me. You get a turn or two before the opponant can react which is nice. Full 10 man unit with two plasma is my preferance. Comes to 195pts as I remember. May seem expensive but can vets can move through the enemy army and get up their rear where the devastators and such are? Nearly always makes its point back but rely on your opponant leaving the heavy weapons in the rear. Usually is the case.

Another tactic I like is to infiltrate on a flank and harrass the enemy. The problem is, stormtroopers with plasma's are a bit too dangerous to ignore so the enemy send someone to deal with them. This has happened many a time against marine players and stormtroopers are on equal terms when it comes to faceing marines head on in a gun fight. You can usually take out a tactical sqaud of equal point value and then do what ever damage you can with who ever is left. Mathhammer: x9 marine shots with bolters vs x9 hotshot lasgun stormies.

Marines 3 to hit, 9 shots, 6 hits
Stormies 3 to hit, 9 shots, 6 hits

Marines 6 hits, 3 to wound, 4 wounds
Stormies 6 hits, 5 to wound, 2 wounds

Marines 2 wounds, no save, 2 dead
Stormies 4 wounds, 4+ save, 2 dead

Now consider that if you infiltrate you should get cover, you also will be taking anti infantry weapons i.e plasma guns. Each stormtrooper is 16pts, the same as a marine but you also get the special rules so they're arn't a bad little buy.

The last role I use them in is ambushing. I'll set them up in cover along main routes. Normally a main vehicle route and slow down the enemies advance. They usually get mauled but they do buy time.

Marines would make those saves more often than not leaving you with 2 dead and them none dead.

I think you missed the part where ST guns are AP3, banzaimash.

DarknessEternal wrote:Nothing changed, so they're still excellent.

This person/thing/vulture/other nailed it. Stormtroopers were "bad" because the internet said so, not because they were actually bad in game. I guess it's a case of people trying them for themselves and finding that they're not as bad as the internet claims.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

DarknessEternal wrote:Nothing changed, so they're still excellent.

This person/thing/vulture/other nailed it. Stormtroopers were "bad" because the internet said so, not because they were actually bad in game. I guess it's a case of people trying them for themselves and finding that they're not as bad as the internet claims.

Yeah, it's nice when people realize that the internet nonsense machine isn't infallible. It's the same thing when you beat someone down with a Thunderfire Cannon.

Deepstriking melta guns for such a relatively low price are pretty good, no matter how you slice it.

I like storm troopers. I try to run a melta squad in any list over 1500. 105 points for rerollable ds melta goodness is pretty sweet. But then i tend to play foot guard, or hybrid guard.

I like a 7 man unit with 2xpg, plasma pistol sarge. Can easily ruin a combat squad or long fans, or can shoot rear/side armor with the re roll ds.

I think storm troopers are pretty cool, but its hard to kill space marines when you would on a 5+.

Stormtroopers can be useful, however there claim that they aren't great units does indeed have some solid merit. As someone who owns probably 200 Stormtrooper models of various sorts.

Stormtroopers as min sized, suicide melta squads work fairly decently.

As general battle units, hunting 3+sv infantry with their AP3 guns, they're awful. As is, they'll merely trade even casualties with Space Marines (lower T and lower Sv balance out Ap3) in a rapid fire shooting war (in addition to having lower max range) and will lose handily to even a depleted tac squad in close combat even with theit pistol/ccw. For 16ppm, they're grossly overcosted. At 12ppm, they'd be ok, if a bit awkward.

They generally won't outshoot anything that costs as much as they do (at best on par usually) and certainly won't outfight much that normal guardsmen won't. As anything but suicide melta units, you can find other units that will do the same job but better.

Really, they should give them WS4, Furious Charge, Ld9 (these guys are the elite of the IG after all, going through much the same mental conditioning as sisters and SM's) and Assault 3 18" guns and drop the AP3 entirely, make them 70pts for 5, 130pts for 10. Make them actual *stormtroopers*, with high RoF, short ranged guns to pin enemies and then clear them by assault from prepared positions.

Hell, I'd take s4 assault 2 range 18".

The only thing I hate about storm troopers is that they have to suicide to be of use to you; which means it's either one kill point for you and for your opponent or one free kill point for your opponent.

Two of my regular opponents use longfangs/havocs in every game. With my recently started elysians army, he has realized that sitting them in a back corner in LOS cover can mean they die anyway from a 5 man storm trooper squad outflanking & double tap hot-shots into his posterior. For my elysians, they're my meq-backfield-slaughtermachine, as I lack LRBT and whatnot to do it for me. The only special weapon I ever put in the squad is a power weapon/plasma pistol on the sergeant for popping transports and (if it occurs) being able to to put a few power weapon attacks towards a charging unit. YMMV with them, as they do take a bit of tactical acumen to get their maximum effectiveness. That being said, for 105pts you can potentially drop 5ML or autocannons from your opponent's force on turn 2. Every game they have been in my enemy has underestimated/ignored my ST, and paid a hefty price.

h0r0 wrote:The only thing I hate about storm troopers is that they have to suicide to be of use to you

Not true that they have to be suicide to be of use. I recently played a tournament where my 5-man stormtrooper unit survived all 3 rounds.

In one game I deepstruck them *behind* the nob biker unit and spent the game picking off nob bikers (the bikers didn't want to turn back and attack them, so the STs just followed the bikers around and plinked at them the whole game). In another game they deepstruck into an empty quadrant and claimed it at the end of the game (non-scoring units could claim table quarters in that scenario).

It's not about firepower or points-per-gun. It's the mobility of deepstriking/outflanking the the deployment options that make stormtroopers worth the cost, even if they don't kill anything or if there are no tanks to kill.