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Pretty simple, Living Metal says any attack that reduces AV or any weapon that adds dice...

Might of the Ancients says that it gives the Librarian a boost (not a weapon) 2D6 for penetration. Seems to me that MotA should still get the 2D6 against a Necron Monolith. Am I being a rule lawyer, am I wrong, or is this RAI?

Do you have the Stealth reprint of the Necron codex?

I hope so, I also hope that it retained the monstrous creatures as examples of "weapons that gain additional Armor penetration dice" because a MC is not a weapon yet is forbidden via example, if the MC is forbidden even though it is not a weapon(and nearly every MC uses a normal CCW); then Might of the Ancients would fail to do so as well.

In short we have 2 choices:

1) Simply apply the broad-stroke; and state that no additional Dice are ever thrown(or only ever 1d6) for armor penetration rolls against the monolith

-or-

2) We all acknowledge that MC, along with other non-weapon attacks that roll multiple D6 can effect the monolith with full rules because the Monstrous Creature example does not follow the rules(of it being a weapon)

Dont be TFG.

If you read the full discription it talks about how the AV of the Monolith may never decrease and that the attack may never be more then one die for penetration. So... RAI means that no, you may not add another die for penetration.

At all.
Ever.
At least until the new Codex comes out.

I see that in the 'dex, but the BRB says that MC gain an additional dice... same as melta in the BRB. However, MotA says that the Librarian HAS a 2D6 AP roll. So its neither a weapon nor an additional die, it just is 2D6 for Armour Penetration roll

EDIT: not a huge deal either way... VoD will work just as well (and has about the same statistical chance). I just like to know and its not in the FAQ

headrattle wrote:Dont be TFG.

If you read the full discription it talks about how the AV of the Monolith may never decrease and that the attack may never be more then one die for penetration. So... RAI means that no, you may not add another die for penetration.

At all.
Ever.
At least until the new Codex comes out.

Unless you're that crazy GK Assassin

It states you may not get an additional die iirc, not can't be more than one ...

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:

headrattle wrote:Dont be TFG.

If you read the full discription it talks about how the AV of the Monolith may never decrease and that the attack may never be more then one die for penetration. So... RAI means that no, you may not add another die for penetration.

At all.
Ever.
At least until the new Codex comes out.

Unless you're that crazy GK Assassin

It states you may not get an additional die iirc, not can't be more than one ...

I agree (see my prior post). Is it splitting hairs to distinguish additional from multiple?

I am sorry, headrattle, but you make mention of reading the full description, and the full description clearly states "Weapons" that gain extra dice.

It also clearly delineates a difference in resistance to AV changing, from which all "Attacks" are ignored.

So any attack that changes the AV, does not change the AV(sorry Weapons, or Creature special abilities); yet only weapons that add extra armor penetration dice are denied.

Again: this is the text in the old codex I am going off of, if anyone has a stealth reprint that alters said text please correct me.

Kommissar Kel wrote:I am sorry, headrattle, but you make mention of reading the full description, and the full description clearly states "Weapons" that gain extra dice.

It also clearly delineates a difference in resistance to AV changing, from which all "Attacks" are ignored.

So any attack that changes the AV, does not change the AV(sorry Weapons, or Creature special abilities); yet only weapons that add extra armor penetration dice are denied.

Here it is



I don't see a psychic stat as being a weapon gaining additional dice, its just a new attack profile from the unit itself... but I know I'm biased, so I need some outside eyes

It's a psychic power that lets the librarian roll 2D6 to pen with his weapon. Unless you would like to use "Might of the Ancients" to do the actual hitting as well, in which case, please, feel free to hit with a weapon that does not exist.

Seriously, do you need to look for buffs against crons? Stop being TFG and leave them alone til the update, you can kill the monolith and their whole army without even touching the lith, man up and deal with the fact that there are some things that your OMG SPEHSS MAHREENS can't kill.

RAW the libby would be Str6 get 2D6, as it is not an additional D6 as stated for monstrous critters, rending, melta, etc

I don't understand what the confusion is... if the libby casts MoTA, he now has 2d6 for armour penetration instead of 1d6. Living Metal explicitly states that weapons that normally roll 2d6 armour penetration instead roll 1d6. The specific rule of Living Metal trumps the more general rule of MoTA. Ergo, that power is useless against the Monolith.

Ignoring all the (anti) space marine drama not addressing the actual issue here, doesn't the latest update finally just say everything rolls only have their strength and 1d6 penetration die regards of other rules?
Also stop making up stuff there is no 'psychic stat' or these other stat modifiers that are "immune to the enemies but benefit me when I want" that people keep trying to take advantage of that simply don't exist in the units or game.

dimmy52 wrote:I don't understand what the confusion is... if the libby casts MoTA, he now has 2d6 for armour penetration instead of 1d6. Living Metal explicitly states that weapons that normally roll 2d6 armour penetration instead roll 1d6. The specific rule of Living Metal trumps the more general rule of MoTA. Ergo, that power is useless against the Monolith.

The poster tagged the quote from the book;

It stated no additional D6's are allowed. If you use 2D6, it's not the same as 1D6+1D6. Monstrous creatures gain an additional Die for being MC's so it's actually D6+D6, Melta guns have 1D6pen, if inside XX" they have 1D6+1D6 pen.

That said MoTA grants the Libby Str6 and 2D6 Pen; nothing in the rules provided state he may not use them.

Effectively the same as the Vindicaire Assassin

Darkjediben wrote:It's a psychic power that lets the librarian roll 2D6 to pen with his weapon. Unless you would like to use "Might of the Ancients" to do the actual hitting as well, in which case, please, feel free to hit with a weapon that does not exist.

Seriously, do you need to look for buffs against crons? Stop being TFG and leave them alone til the update, you can kill the monolith and their whole army without even touching the lith, man up and deal with the fact that there are some things that your OMG SPEHSS MAHREENS can't kill.

Wow, really? You don't even debate finer points of rules with friends at the FLGS? We had a friendly discussion on what could take down a monolith. I said that a single libby with a storm shield would have a fair shot at CC range. Curious if RAW allows the 2D6 pen the SM codex describes. Thank you for trumping me in the TFG ladder

EDIT: and between lascannons, CC dreads, VoD, thunderhammers, Orbital Strikes, Vindicators, and Conversion Beams... my "SPEHSS MAHREENS" can do just fine taking down a 'lith

"unaugmented strength of the weapon and a single D6, no matter what" is roughly what the last line of the Monolith rules states (2nd version of codex, 2004?)

So, when you roll S6 and try to roll 2D6 using your weapon, are you rolling more than 1D6? Yes? Then you only get 1D6

nosferatu1001 wrote:"unaugmented strength of the weapon and a single D6, no matter what" is roughly what the last line of the Monolith rules states (2nd version of codex, 2004?)

So, when you roll S6 and try to roll 2D6 using your weapon, are you rolling more than 1D6? Yes? Then you only get 1D6

So my Necron dex is out of date? Well that's annoying (and they didn't even mention that in the FAQ, as I see nothing forbidding baseline 2D6 in my dex or the online FAQ, just additional dice)

Just to be clear, the quote I posted from my dex is wrong?

Yes.

They released a FAQ, and then sometime later they released a second edition of the codex that included those answers but didn't have any identifying marks.

Once they'd released the new codex they felt the FAQ was no longer needed because the answers were in the codex, so they waited a short time and pulled all the "redundant" questions from the FAQ.

This is actually pretty funny; bought a codex a couple years ago from our local shop ...

it's the old outdated one -_-

Guess I should say Older, more so outdated one

Living metal rule negates all 2D6 armor penetrations(whitout counting ordnance weapons). Simple!

Jone96 wrote:Living metal rule negates all 2D6 armor penetrations(whitout counting ordnance weapons). Simple!

Not the one thats posted... aparently there was an update. Trying to get the context of it now ... Simple!

Jone96 wrote:Living metal rule negates all 2D6 armor penetrations(whitout counting ordnance weapons). Simple!

It would be great if someone could quote the "new" explanation of the Living Metal rule IF it reads different than the one I posted.

For the SW, the talisman doesn't affect psychic actions that boost stats BEFORE an attack (IE: Str). I see this, so far, as being the same sort of distinction: a libby is getting a 1 turn change in stats, not gaining additional dice. Seems to me that if the splitting of hairs nerfs my wolftail talismans then the same split end lets a libby row away on a 'lith.

Again, I don't NEED this, I just want to know why RAW would take it away, using quotes (not paraphrasing) of rules from books. As said before, my SM have at least 6 solid methods of messing up a 'lith (and they have ); this is about rules in a vacuum, not the meta game and if SM need to have another way to dent the tin soldiers.

They added a line to the end, which reads almost exactly the same as I posted.

If you want more explanation of this do a google search on this forum, and you will find many, many monolith threads - they will have the exact wording in it.

No, you DO NOT get +2D6 against a monolith, ever, There has only ever been one exception which is the old vindicare assasin, and even he got nerfed prior to the new GK book.

nosferatu1001 wrote:"unaugmented strength of the weapon and a single D6, no matter what" is roughly what the last line of the Monolith rules states (2nd version of codex, 2004?)

So, when you roll S6 and try to roll 2D6 using your weapon, are you rolling more than 1D6? Yes? Then you only get 1D6

That's what I was looking for, I knew there was supposed to be a bit about "unaugmented strength of the weapon" added(which would make the FAQ make a little more sense).

Like I said.
"If you read the full discription it talks about how the AV of the Monolith may never decrease and that the attack may never be more then one die for penetration. So... RAI means that no, you may not add another die for penetration. "

Directly from the book, page 21.

"In practice, any weapon attacking the Monolith will roll for armor penetration using its unaugmented strength and a single d6 no matter what."

Now, I will repeat.
You may not add another die for penetration.

At all.
Ever.
At least until the new Codex comes out.

If you have a codex that doesn't say that, my only question is... where did you get it, and where have you been to not know these changes? Just curious.
Also I demand an apology from all of those who doubted me!

headrattle wrote:
If you have a codex that doesn't say that, my only question is... where did you get it, and where have you been to not know these changes? Just curious.
Also I demand an apology from all of those who doubted me!

Yeah, that will happen. I borrowed a Codex from my local Necron player (scanned in relevant portion, had no reason to doubt it)

Theres nothing wrong with having the codex without that phrase - it's just the first printing. It was changed in the second printing.

I agree w/head rattle. Living metal causes about as much debate as the new GK codex from what counts as weapons to what augments strength. As I play (both against and as a necron player) nothing, not the vindicare assassin, not eldrad, not any farseer, not any monster, not any melta, lance, or other example you could possiably fathom that effects your results to breach the armor (except dice roll modifyers such as pask) will ever take effect on the monolith. It was created prior to the rules that are in the newer codecies and as such has a few minor holes in it but the phrase i"In practice, any weapon attacking the monolith will roll for armor penetration using its base strength and a single d6 no matter what" holds up to almost any argument one could make. RAI nothing works.

New codex can't come soon enough, even though it's virtually guaranteed to nerf the Lith.

Ascalam wrote:New codex can't come soon enough, even though it's virtually guaranteed to nerf the Lith.

No kidding I'm tired of the headaches -_-

Stupid old new, older codex junk ... if only they had left the faq up

Vindicare-Obsession wrote:I agree w/head rattle. Living metal causes about as much debate as the new GK codex from what counts as weapons to what augments strength. As I play (both against and as a necron player) nothing, not the vindicare assassin, not eldrad, not any farseer, not any monster, not any melta, lance, or other example you could possiably fathom that effects your results to breach the armor (except dice roll modifyers such as pask) will ever take effect on the monolith. It was created prior to the rules that are in the newer codecies and as such has a few minor holes in it but the phrase i"In practice, any weapon attacking the monolith will roll for armor penetration using its base strength and a single d6 no matter what" holds up to almost any argument one could make. RAI nothing works.

With the exception of Fists, Thunder Hammers, etc.