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Okay was playing in a game against new Gk. During shooting, my opponent shots Ghazkull with shield breaker round...nulling his invul save. Next round I WAAGH! and charge into combat. Opponent explained to me that Ghaz's invul save isn't there because of shield breaker...is this correct? Does the shot take out all invul save or do you have to select one...say a termie with iron halo? Does it have to wound to kill the invul saves on 4+ or just hit the target? Sorry for all the questions just don't have the codex.

So easy to answer format

Does Shield Breaker Round....

1) Eliminate all invul saves from all wargear?
2) Eliminate the save just by hitting, regardless of wounding?
3) Eliminate invul save that are given in certain situations...i.e. Wyches CC, Blessing of Blood God against Force Weapons, Ghaz's WAAGH!?

DaOrkz1977 wrote:
1) Eliminate all invul saves from all wargear?
2) Eliminate the save just by hitting, regardless of wounding?
3) Eliminate invul save that are given in certain situations...i.e. Wyches CC, Blessing of Blood God against Force Weapons, Ghaz's WAAGH!?

1) Yes.
2) No, it requires a wound.
3) Not really, the rule says "That model loses any invulnerable saves granted by wargear immediately and for the rest of the game." (emphasis mine)


Prophet of the Waaagh! is a Special Rule, not wargear.


Also, it always helps to ask to see any rule that is new/confusing/strange sounding.
Anyone that gets upset at the request is on thin ice already.


Editing to add:
It is often brought up that the Shiled-Breaker rounds would potentially break the wargear that grants the ARMOUR save that Prophet of the Waaagh! turns into an invulnerable, even though the wargear does not grant an invulnerable save. But unless that shot occurs while the save is invulnerable, it does not seem right to me.
This is rather worth talking about but comes across as more complicated than it should be.

The shield breaker round destroys whatever bit of gear is granting the model an invul save, taking away the invo save for the rest of the game. IIRC, shield breaker only has to hit to destroy the gear granting the invul save, and then you still have to take the hit, assuming a passed to wound roll. Only now you don't have your invul save, and the shot is ap 1, so unless you are in cover, your going to take a wound at the same time your invul save granting gear was destroyed.

However, you do raise an interesting question. Take a model with terminator armor that also has a storm shield. Shield breaker shot hits and destroys the storm shield. Does the model still have the invo save granted by the terminator armor?

Finally, shield breaker only effects invul saves granted by wargear. So I'd assume that if some other rule, like Ghazkull's waaahg! (not sure as I don't roll orks) grant an invul save, you'd still get it.

DakkaDakka wrote:

Because a special rule makes ghaz's save count as invun, the shieldbreaker round doesn't stop his save. If his rule made his save invun, then it would.

It is much easier:

The invul from gaz that he gets during Whaagh is not coming from wargear but from a abilty. So he cannot take it away.

It's just the same as the vindicare cannot remove the 3++ from a lord of change as it is a innate ability.

the only thing that is doubter for me is the kustom forcefield of a mekboy when he is inside a battlewagon...

If you hit a terminator, it would remove both Invuls, as they are both granted by wargear. The terminator armor is wargear.
You definately do not need to wound to cause this affect.
If Ghaz had the invul save at the time, then he would lose it. Ghaz's armor save becomes invul when he uses his Master of the Waagh. If he took that sheild breaker then, by RaW, he would lose the invul save (and arguably his armor save with it) from the shield breaker.

axeman1n wrote:If you hit a terminator, it would remove both Invuls, as they are both granted by wargear. The terminator armor is wargear.
You definately do not need to wound to cause this affect.
If Ghaz had the invul save at the time, then he would lose it. Ghaz's armor save becomes invul when he uses his Master of the Waagh. If he took that sheild breaker then, by RaW, he would lose the invul save (and arguably his armor save with it) from the shield breaker.

Marine lover...

You people try to bend the rules so you can make yourself feel better about it because your so scared of Ghazghkull's invl?

The only thing you can take away from him is his 5+ invl (cyborg body) His 2+ invl is a special rule not a wargear.

Wargear:

Adamantium Skull

Special rule:

IC, Mob rule, Furious charge, Prophet of the waaagh

Prophet of the waaagh says: During this period Ghazghkull's saving throw is invulnerable.

axeman1n wrote:If you hit a terminator, it would remove both Invuls, as they are both granted by wargear. The terminator armor is wargear.
You definately do not need to wound to cause this affect.
If Ghaz had the invul save at the time, then he would lose it. Ghaz's armor save becomes invul when he uses his Master of the Waagh. If he took that sheild breaker then, by RaW, he would lose the invul save (and arguably his armor save with it) from the shield breaker.

Not by RAW, please don't misuse that. RAW says Wargear, Prophet of the Waaagh! is a special rule. He keeps his 2++. Agreed on Terminators though - to answer the earlier question, no invulnerables at all are listed in the profile for assault Terminators, both are granted by wargear (storm shield and Terminator armour respectively) and once the shot hits they're both gone.

Also it says, when a wound is allocated to a model then he loses all items of wargear that grant any invl saves.

This means it have to wound first so you do need to wound. Then they won't get any invul save against the wound.

axeman1n wrote:If you hit a terminator, it would remove both Invuls, as they are both granted by wargear. The terminator armor is wargear.
You definately do not need to wound to cause this affect.
If Ghaz had the invul save at the time, then he would lose it. Ghaz's armor save becomes invul when he uses his Master of the Waagh. If he took that sheild breaker then, by RaW, he would lose the invul save (and arguably his armor save with it) from the shield breaker.

Wrong. Ghaz only has a 5++ save from wargear(Adamantite Skull). If you claim RAW, please quote a wargear that confers a 2++ save.

Also it says, when a wound is allocated to a model then he loses all items of wargear that grant any invl saves.

This means it have to wound first so you do need to wound. Then they won't get any invul save against the wound.

The gk player chooses who the shot is allocated to. So that step is done before wounding. The wording of shield breaker says that when the shot is allocated to a model he loses all invuln saves granted by pieces of wargear. So no wound needs to be caused.

I don't believe that the shield breaker can remove gazzy's waaagh save because as said avoce, it's not granted by a piece of wargear, rather by a special rule.

"When a wound from this round is allocated...."

First line of Shieldbreaker. Deadshot also states that the vindicare allocates wounds

DakkaDakka wrote:

Che-Vito wrote:

axeman1n wrote:If you hit a terminator, it would remove both Invuls, as they are both granted by wargear. The terminator armor is wargear.
You definately do not need to wound to cause this affect.
If Ghaz had the invul save at the time, then he would lose it. Ghaz's armor save becomes invul when he uses his Master of the Waagh. If he took that sheild breaker then, by RaW, he would lose the invul save (and arguably his armor save with it) from the shield breaker.

Incorrect actually. It is only wargear if it is listed as wargear.

Cool, guess my BT Assault Terminators can sweeping advance then? After all, Terminator Armour isn't listed as part of their gear...

Ah yes, that old chestnut.

kirsanth wrote:

DaOrkz1977 wrote:
1) Eliminate all invul saves from all wargear?
2) Eliminate the save just by hitting, regardless of wounding?
3) Eliminate invul save that are given in certain situations...i.e. Wyches CC, Blessing of Blood God against Force Weapons, Ghaz's WAAGH!?

1) Yes.
2) No, it requires a wound.
3) Not really, the rule says "That model loses any invulnerable saves granted by wargear immediately and for the rest of the game." (emphasis mine)

1) correct
2) Incorrect. the Shield Breaker simply requires a hit.
3) Ghaz would still get his Waaaagh invuln save.

Hmmm how would shield breaker affect the Dark Eldar's flickerfield for vehicles? Is it wargear or a vehicle upgrade?

Vehicle upgrades are vehicle wargear.

This can be evidenced in the "bestiary" section of the Dark eldar codex page 43(the Venom) which lists the Flickerfield(in particular) as "wargear" that comes standard on the venom.

nosferatu1001 wrote:"When a wound from this round is allocated...."

First line of Shieldbreaker. Deadshot also states that the vindicare allocates wounds

GT - your no2 is wrong. You MUST have wounded, otherwise you cannot allocate a wound

Hmmm, I guess so.

wonder where I got mixed up.

obsidianaura wrote:Hmmm how would shield breaker affect the Dark Eldar's flickerfield for vehicles? Is it wargear or a vehicle upgrade?

Shield breaker won't work on flicker fields as you can't wound vehicles

bagtagger wrote:

obsidianaura wrote:Hmmm how would shield breaker affect the Dark Eldar's flickerfield for vehicles? Is it wargear or a vehicle upgrade?

Shield breaker won't work on flicker fields as you can't wound vehicles

... If that's the case, your flicker fields are useless as you can only take invl. saves vs wounds. Have fun with that.

Not really the same thing, by the way.

They have FAQed that you can take saves against glancing/penetrating hits. that's old news. if vehicle take cover saves then they can take invuln saves too, the fact that it needed to be explained to people was dumb.

rigeld2 wrote:

bagtagger wrote:

obsidianaura wrote:Hmmm how would shield breaker affect the Dark Eldar's flickerfield for vehicles? Is it wargear or a vehicle upgrade?

Shield breaker won't work on flicker fields as you can't wound vehicles

... If that's the case, your flicker fields are useless as you can only take invl. saves vs wounds. Have fun with that.

That's a totally different issue. Shield breaker only works when you successfully wound. You can't wound a vehicle, ergo, shield breaker does nothing on them.

Vehicle invul saves don't work by a strict RAW, but they obviously are meant to work against Glancing and Penetrating hits.

But, I see what you're saying. Glancing or Penetrating hits are analogous to wounding. So, if we ever played each other, I'd suggest a house rule that a Shield Breaker hit would destroy the Flickerfield if you got a glancing or penetrating hit with it.

Grakmar wrote: But, I see what you're saying. Glancing or Penetrating hits are analogous to wounding. So, if we ever played each other, I'd suggest a house rule that a Shield Breaker hit would destroy the Flickerfield if you got a glancing or penetrating hit with it.

That's a ruling I could live with.

The Prophet of the Waagh makes his save invulnerable. The save that is granted by wargear. Therefore while under the affects of the PotW, he has a 2++ save granted by his wargear.
This is not a stretch. Just because it's dumb, doesn't mean it's wrong. If he did not have that Mega Armor, he would not gain a 2++ save from PotW. Clearly wargear is required.

Any house rules that would allow the vindicare's shield-breaker's "to-wound" ability to work on vehicles would need to be unbiased and allow all "to-wound" abilities to work on vehicles. Preferred enemy, the Eldar Doom psychic power, lightning claws, (chaplins?), etc... they would all have to now allow re-rolls of the armor penetration roll for this to be fair.

If that's what people want to house rule, that's fine... but they shouldn't allow this for one army but not every other one in the same situation.

Why do people keep stating that shield breaker needs to would before destroying the wargear granting an invul save?

coldex: Grey Knights pg53

"Shield Breaker: When a wound from this round is allocated to a model, that model loses any invulnerable saves granted by items of wargear immediately, and for the rest of the battle. Remaining saves (if any) can then be taken."

So, yes, you have to roll to wound before the gear is destroyed, buy you don't get to apply your invul save. Just wanted that to be clear.
Also, I just noticed the rule says "the model loses any invulnerable saves granted by items of wargear immediately". So it would follow that, as in the terminator with a storm shield example, multiple items of wargear granting a invul save all stop granting the invul save at the same time.

The Prophet of the Waagh is definitely a save being granted by a special rule, not wargear. It is not his armor making his save invul, its the special rule. Prophet of the Waagh just uses the save from his armor as a reference as to what his save, which is temporarily invul do due the special rule, is.