Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

hi all! after playing chaos daemons and some various power armor armies, i have decided on starting an eldar army I could use some advice on what units are effective


here is what I have purchased so far:

-1 box of rangers (seeing as its my username it seemed appropriate)
-1 wraithlord
-1 viper
-1 squad of dark reapers with exarch
-3 warlocks and a farseer (i plan on converting one of the warlocks into a farseer)


i am planning on eventually buying 2 of the eldar box sets wich will give me:

-10 dire avengers
-20 guardians (planning on converting some into more dire avengers)
- 2 wave serpents
- 2 warwalkers

after studying the codex, lurking on various forums, and doing some hypothetical list building i did have some questions

- I know everyone claims that eldrad is pure concentrated awesome in model form, but to me it seems like he's too expensive. for the points he's worth, can't you get 2 farseers with soul stones, guide and doom?
-whats the best load out for vehicles weapon wise? and do wriathlords work well for ranged anti tank, or should I have him build for melee combat?

I do plan on eventually getting some melee forces for my army eventually also (probably harlequins)

any advice, tips or wisdom anyone has to offer would be greatly appreciated

I think the first step is to determine what type of Eldar army you want. Basically, your options are the following:

Mechdar (Biel-Tan): This is by far the best Eldar army to run (from a competitive environment standpoint). 3x Wave Serpent, 2x10 Dire Avenger Squad (Exarch with Dual Catapult), 5 Fire Dragon squad (no Exarch), 2xFire Prisms, 3x War Walker, Farseer is a great place to start. Expand as needed. If you want to go Biel-Tan themed, this is the army to run, but throw in some more aspect warriors for fluff.

Footdar (Ulthwe): This army doesn't really work too well any more. You'll rely much more on Guardians. Harlies typically make an appearance here. Avatar does as well, oftentimes. This is the best choice to make a Ulthwe themed army if you go heavy on Seer council and Guardians.

Iyanden: A very fluffy army, and hard to kill. But, it typically lacks volume of firepower and very limited mobility. Doesn't do well competitively. Costs a TON of cash to play. Farseer, 2x 10 Wraithguard (with Spirit Seer), 3x Wraithlord is a great place to start.

Jetbike Eldar (Saim-Hann): Possibly the 2nd best Eldar army, but still not nearly as good as Mechdar. You run a ton of Guardian Jetbike units, and run a Farseer and Warlock squad all on Jetbikes. Again, a rather expensive army to purchase. If you want to go fluffy Saim-Hann, you're already most of the way there, you just need to get some Vypers and maybe drop the Warlocks.

MC Eldar: My favorite army, but not particularly good any more. You run Avatar and Wraithlords to just slowly advance on your opponent with incredibly tough units.

Alaitoc: An awful army. Only run it if you really like the fluffyness of it. Field a whole ton of Rangers/Pathfinders and hope for the best (which won't be much).


Mixing and matching simply doesn't work well in Eldar (or most any other army). Find a theme and stick with it.

As for what you've already purchased:
Rangers are the core of Alaitoc, but a single unit sometimes appears in Footdar or Mechdar. I discourage it, but some players like them.
Wraithlord is a must in Iyanden or MC Eldar. Can also appear in Footdar. Avoid in any mech force.
Vypers (with a y) can work in Jetbike or Mechdar. It's typically a weak unit and doesn't appear in small forces. But, by 2000pts, you've got to find something more to spend on, and Vypers are a decent choice for those lists.
Dark Reapers are pretty overpriced with the current meta. They can work in Footdar lists, but that's about it.
Farseer is pretty much a must in any Eldar list.
Warlocks on foot work well in Footdar (with your Guardians), Mechdar (with Storm Guardians), and Iyanden (with Wraithguard). I'm not a fan of a seer council on foot, but they sometimes are run with success.

You're all across the board at the moment. So, I'd really suggest you figure out what style you want to play and focus on that.

Eldrad is a gem in what is now a largely outdated codex, he is cheap for what he does. He is nightmare to kill, buffs your army and can take out anything in assault. You can't quite get 2 Farseers for his cost actually, but on top of that he comes with every psychic power, is much harder to kill and will actually kill things in assault. He casts as much as 1.5 Farseers basically, since he can double up on powers per turn. Importantly it also means you have another HQ slot free to take something else (most commonly the Avatar in foot lists). That said he isn't an automatic selection, in a mech heavy list many of his abilities are wasted as he sits in a transport the whole game and has no assault units to back him up in combat, at which point he isn't really worth the 210pts unless you are at or above 2000pts. In a foot list he gets more mileage, but foot based lists are weaker in general so it balances out. With the amount of psychic defence around now Eldar get diminishing returns from Farseers in general, half the reason you bring them is for Runes of Warding. Don't build a list relying on casting powers to win. In my 2000pt list I run an Farseer with Doom/Guide/Warding/Stones and an Autarch with Fusion Gun, which works out about the same cost, but works better in a completely mech army.

There isn't really a single best weapon loadout for vehicles, the main thing is to avoid Starcannons as they are massively overpriced (the Scatter Laser performs just as well in most circumstances and better in quite a few more for half the cost). Bright Lances should be used sparingly, they are overcosted, but are one of the few ways to get anti AV14 at range, so can cover if you are light on Fire Dragons. EML and Scatter Lasers are generally your main weapons for Serpents, Walkers (don't mix weapons), Vypers and Falcons (EML for anti AV12, Scatter + underslung for anti infantry), they aren't too expensive and have decent punch and range. Shuriken Cannons are generally a backup option if you are short on points, the extra range from the Scatter Laser is almost always worth it. The underslung Cannon upgrade is a 50/50 call which gets debated quite a bit, its nice because it adds to your firepower for cheap, but limits you to moving 6" per turn if you want to make use of it which if your army/play style doesn't allow for tend to be wasted. Spirit Stones also get debated quite a bit, I tend to only put them on vehicles which cannot afford to get Stunned because they are moving up close (and thus staying still for a turn will result in them being assaulted and dying painfully) but on everything else I leave them off as stuff like Prisms and Falcons shouldn't be inside of assault range of anything basically so not moving for a turn shouldn't be fatal. Other people just take them everywhere, preferring to stay as mobile as possible at all times.

Despite T8 and S10 Wraithlords are actually terrible in assault because they only have 2 attacks, no Invulnerable, and are incredibly slow (no fleet, no way to speed them up at all). In close they are very vulnerable to melta and plasma, will get stuck in combat forever against most units and eaten alive if they have a Power Fist (since he can't pick it out). They are most commonly seen as fire support platforms for Foot based lists with EML + Bright Lance, since they can take a few shots and keep firing (finding cover is a problem though) and are a rare source of BS4.

If you want to be competitive then Mech is generally the way to go. Purely from a competitive POV Footdar doesn't really have much going for it, against 5th edition lists its fighting an uphill battle. I would suggest converting some of those Guardians into Storm Guardians (sword arms from the Avenger sprue), as with 2 Flamers + Destructor Warlock they have more burst damage than a full squad of Avengers for less cost. Rangers aren't a great choice unfortunately, even in a foot list they tend to have issues against flamers and assault units, since they are a completely static unit. Vypers are nice in a mech list, but you definitely need more than 1. Reapers also suffer because they are completely static, they shred MEQ but rarely find a place in either mech (since they are static) or foot (since it needs the anti tank more) lists. Fire Dragons should definitely be high on the list of things to buy, they are an amazing unit and 5 for them reliably kill just about any vehicle in the game.

Eldarranger wrote:after studying the codex, lurking on various forums, and doing some hypothetical list building i did have some questions

- I know everyone claims that eldrad is pure concentrated awesome in model form, but to me it seems like he's too expensive. for the points he's worth, can't you get 2 farseers with soul stones, guide and doom?

Eldrad is 210. To get the equivalent from Farssers, you need a Farseer with dual runes, spirit stones, and 2 powers costs ~140 and the 2nd Farseer with a single power costs ~80. So, the points are very close.

You get more T and a 3+ invul with Eldrad, get the re-deploy option and leave the other HQ spot open for an Autarch. But, you put all your eggs in one basket. It's ultimately up to you, but either choice is totally legit.

Eldarranger wrote:-whats the best load out for vehicles weapon wise? and do wriathlords work well for ranged anti tank, or should I have him build for melee combat?

The only weapons Eldar vehicles should be given are EML, Scatter Laser, Brightlance, or Shuriken Cannon (and only for minimizing points).
WS should be given a weapon that handles the opposite of whats inside. So, Fire Dragon WS should get Scatter Laser (or Cannon if you need points elsewhere) and other WS should be given EML (or Brightlance if you choose not to run much anti-tank).
Falcons should either be given a Brightlance (so you have synergy with S8 AP2 shots) or an EML (so you can fire it defensively in Plasma mode to keep mobility up).
Vypers should either be given a Scatter Laser or an EML.
War Walkers should be given dual Scatter Lasers. You sometimes see dual-Cannons, dual-Brightlance (very rare due to cost), or dual-EML. Whatever you go with, never mix-and-match weapons.
Wraithlords (not a vehicle, but relavent) are much trickier. Run them with BL+EML for anti-tank, or Scatter Laser+Cannon for anti-infantry, or heavy weapon+Sword for melee. Note, they're not that great at melee and easy to tarpit.

Eldarranger wrote:I do plan on eventually getting some melee forces for my army eventually also (probably harlequins)

Figure out what army style you want first. Eldar lack any transports you can assault from, so Eldar melee troops are very hard to use.

The power of the eldar is in farseers and nothing epitomizes that better than Eldrad. Eldrad gives you the ability of two farseers (basically) and then the flexibility to take whatever else you want for the other HQ slot.

Mobility is the other eldar forte so wave serpents, night spinners, fire prisms and falcons. The problem with the eldar right now is that probably only two choices really should be played, fire dragons and dire avengers. The other choices either lack mobility or lethality for their cost.
Don't get me wrong, a unit of pathfinders or warp spiders - depending on your style of play - can enhance your army but you would probably do just as well to have an extra fire dragon or dire avenger squad in a wave serpent as to have any other option.

The two Eldar Battle Forces will give you great options, since 10 DA, 2 WS and 2 War Walkers are great additions. You will probably want to add 10 more DA and as the others said Fire Dragons. If you like tanks you can't do anything wrong with Falcons.

Farseer, Eldrad, DA, Fire Dragons, Wave Serpents, Falcons, Fire Prisms, those are probably the units you need for "competitive armies".

Personally, I love playing other units, Warp Spiders, even Phoenix Lords, but most players here will probably tell you that this is not competitive. And if you are in a tournament-like environment they are probably right. But if you play against friends who live variations in their armies as well you can do every fluff stuff you like and have fun ^^

I've seen a lot of people past few months move from mechdar towards footdar and have succesfully played them myself if that is a viable army for you to start towards.

With the high points cost of wave serpents I started dropping them finding I got more effective turns from the army with what I filled the points with. It's meant my serpents have sat waiting on seeing if the future codex makes them viable to me again, but also gave me a nostalgic feel playing the army.
Most footdar armies run around a farseer (or Eldrad) with the Avatar for a fearless bubble. Also it's the list where you'll see wraithlords and reapers show up the most.

Wraithlords are great anti tank with the ability to take 2 heavy weapons, opting for a brightlance and missile launcher. Also they're durable units as well.

A third war walker would be a great addition to the army too as 3 dual scatter laser war walkers that are guided onto a doomed unit really reap a toll.

If you wanted to use the guardians I found storm guardians work better for me. A warlock with a singing spear, destructor and special weapons depending on what I am facing or one of each in 2 units of them in an all comers list kept inside an avatars fearless bubble. Also if you go the dual shuriken catapults option on the DA exarch you have some spare swords/spears to start converting up storm guadians with.

I'm also with Murenius on the subject of warp spiders, high str weapons and manouverable, fits pretty much any list fairly well.

Wraithlords are too expensive for two guns, and are not durable.

A single WL being singled out will not be durable, 2 WL's and a fortuned avatar in my experience are. And for AT in footdar they're the best option despite the cost in a fair few line ups. It will all come down to the rest of your force and local meta game, in this case I am generalising.

Welcome to Eldar!

First off, take everything anyone says here with a grain of salt, including me. Everyone gives advice based on their own experiences and what is be true for them, may not be true for you. The fact of the matter is, a good player can win with nearly any army/list.

That said, you should determine what style list you want to play.

As stated, there is basically Footdar and Mechdar. Hybrid Eldar (mix of foot and mech) can be tricky because the strength of the Eldar army is in Synergy and force multiplication. Since most of your buffs and auras are short ranged, you either need to not use them or keep things close together to get the most bang for your buck. That means, typically, things need to be moving at the same speed.

Footdar is the much maligned way to run the army. I love them, and have won several tournaments with mine. Greg Sparks ran them at the ETC (European Team Championships) and kicked ass.

It is a super fun army, has tons of synergy and is definitely competitive, but as others have said, it is playing the game on hard mode. As a novice, I wouldn't recommend it unless you are up for a challenge while you acclimate to the list. It is a ton of fun to play though, and it is extremely satisfying to beat people who think the army sucks. Your bad match-ups will be Mechdar, Venom Spam Deldar and Leaf Blower. Everything else is fine, and you can whip on Grey Knights, which is always fun.

Mechdar is considered the better list, although I don't like playing it. The army is fully mechanized and min/maxed. You don't hit that hard with this army, and spend a lot of time running and hiding from the other player. Often you win with last turn objective grabs. Dual Autarchs work well with this list so you can always reserve and come in on a 2+. This list is a bit one-dimensional though. However it is fast, and can dance around other armies, shooting them up.

Once you decide which lists sounds fun to you, start asking more specific questions.

And, honestly, experience will be your best guide. If you just want to start with units you like and think look cool, go for it. Just ask how most people tend to play them and let that be your guide. I have seen crazy lists work well in experienced hands, so don't let anyone scare you away from trying something you think might work well.

Reecius is right on proxy some stuff and try different builds out see what works for you then you can get right into an army you like and dont waste a bunch of money on stuff you dont need or like playing with

wow first off thanks for all your advice! its great that i can get that response and it helps to get a perspective on eldar so i don't waste my money on units that are in effective.

if you'll continue to bear with me i did have some follow up questions:

-ok so eldrad is indeed awesome now the question is where do you stick him in? i am assuming you don't want him out in the open, do you stick him in a squad of dire avengers, or do you keep safe inside a wave serpent so you use his powers?

- I am totally caught off guard by the suggestion of storm guardians. from what i noticed or heard, i assumed you only took guardians to get the heavy weapons, and the rest just adsorb bolter fire. is the warlock upgrade worth it or should i just run them without him as a cheap speed bump unit?

-as far as play style goes, I am fairly used to being defeated on a regular basis in the group that i play with, but i do want to give them some what of a run for their money, but i don't really do tournaments or anything.

-I may try for mix of both foot and mech (mostly mech) here is what i am thinking army wise:

-edrad and a ranged auratch (spelling butchered i know) for HQ
-squad of rangers (possibly two) some people don't like them i know but they are one of my favorite units fluff wise. speaking of which is the pathfinder upgrade worth it? my instincts say no
-2 DA squads w/ exarchs with duel catapults and blade storm, wave serpents for their rides with possibly eldar missile launchers
-storm guardians w/ flamers in a wave serpent (eldrad ride with them? Yay or nay? my thoughts is that they will absorb wounds
-wraithlord w/ bright lance

thats what i have hypothetical list wise, no points i know ill add them later


the idea for the army i have currently is based off the display army in the fith edition main rule book, with the army centering around rangers and maybe giving my guardians or DA hoods.

once again thanks!

I played a list very like that one. I could beat people who were bad at the game, but against any real challenge I needed to get ridiculously lucky to have a chance. It is not good.

The combination of foot and mech never really worked for me either. If the core of the list is mech you'll find fire prisms and war walkers a better choice as the wave serpents can be armed with heavy weapons, and also can transport fire dragons .
The 2 flamer storm guardians with a destructor lock in a WS does hurt though, not many things enjoy those templates hitting them.

Eldarranger wrote:wow first off thanks for all your advice! its great that i can get that response and it helps to get a perspective on eldar so i don't waste my money on units that are in effective.

if you'll continue to bear with me i did have some follow up questions:

-ok so eldrad is indeed awesome now the question is where do you stick him in? i am assuming you don't want him out in the open, do you stick him in a squad of dire avengers, or do you keep safe inside a wave serpent so you use his powers?
I like to position him between two vyper squadrons or two war walker squadrons, an alternative is near your pathfinders. I like to have him in a waveserpent as this extends his range and provides some protection for him.

- I am totally caught off guard by the suggestion of storm guardians. from what i noticed or heard, i assumed you only took guardians to get the heavy weapons, and the rest just adsorb bolter fire. is the warlock upgrade worth it or should i just run them without him as a cheap speed bump unit?
Storms are good with two flamers and a warlock with destructor it is relatively cheap and can cleanse any pocket of enemy. Also it offers the benefit of not being a close combat unit

-as far as play style goes, I am fairly used to being defeated on a regular basis in the group that i play with, but i do want to give them some what of a run for their money, but i don't really do tournaments or anything.

-I may try for mix of both foot and mech (mostly mech) here is what i am thinking army wise:

-edrad and a ranged auratch (spelling butchered i know) for HQ
-squad of rangers (possibly two) some people don't like them i know but they are one of my favorite units fluff wise. speaking of which is the pathfinder upgrade worth it? my instincts say no
-2 DA squads w/ exarchs with duel catapults and blade storm, wave serpents for their rides with possibly eldar missile launchers
-storm guardians w/ flamers in a wave serpent (eldrad ride with them? Yay or nay? my thoughts is that they will absorb wounds
-wraithlord w/ bright lance

Other than the wraithlord I like your list. The wraithlord with EML and bright lance provides a solid AT choice though. Definitely upgrade them to pathfinders! The combination of +2 to cover saves and 5 &6s being AP1 is the bane of terminators! Think of this guide 9 pathfinders and doom their target. That is 4 AP1 hits and 4 regular hits. The doom will mean 3 AP1 kills and there is a good chance of 3 regular hits with one being AP2 from rending. Add to that they should be getting a 2++ cover save and they can be disgusting to the point that your opponent can't afford to let them live.

thats what i have hypothetical list wise, no points i know ill add them later


the idea for the army i have currently is based off the display army in the fith edition main rule book, with the army centering around rangers and maybe giving my guardians or DA hoods.

once again thanks!

Above all enjoy!

Hi, I've been playing Eldar (and 40k) for about six months now. Not competitively, just with friends. I think I'm starting to get the hang of it. I play a mech/foot hybrid, leaning heavily towards footdar.

That being said, I'm just going to comment on one thing, since most other stuff has been said already by others.

pathfinder upgrade worth it? my instincts say no

Definitely worth it. A 25% points increase is indeed steep, but then again the point costs for the entire Eldar codex are steep. 4+ to wound, always, 5+ rending on a 36'' ranged weapon is jawsome, the +1 cover save saved by pathfinders more than once.

The thing is that most people innitially don't consider them to be a thread. You can use this to your advantage. I remember a game against myTyranids buddy where, by turn two I had almost killed his big bug boss + retinue, with only 5 pathfinders - only because he couldn't reach them on foot, they were in cover and kept rolling enough 5's and 6's.

Against other foot lists they are absolutely killer. Against mech lists they are basically useless. Against hybrids they are good enough - great sources of annoyance to your opponent.

I agree with Thom in the upgrade. If your going to run those horrible things it's really Pathfinders or none at all. But the stats were stated wrong: Pathfinder will get a 2+ cover in any terrain, there rifles will become AP 1 on a to hit roll of 5+( instead of the 6+ with Ranger,) they're rending tho remains at a 6 to wound or pen. And with they're fleet and masters of stealths rules, if you ever have any alive past turn 3 you can go run off to a far objective to capture( pending all viable targets have been dealt with)

P.S. When a Pathfinder gets the AP1 and happens to rend and glance a flat-outted Stormraven=hilarity ensues

Yes! A thread I haven't posted in praising the merits of Storm Guardians . My Storm Guardian Squads have time and time again proved their merit, to the point where I would rather have them in my list then my Dire Avenger squad.

I dislike Pathfinders, and I love Guardian Jetbike squads. Did you know that they compete for the same role on a list? True story. Guardian Jetbikes are best at forming small squads to capture objectives, and provide light fire support. Heres the catch, because of their speed and upgrade options, they actually preform both roles significantly better than a Pathfinder squad ever could.

120 points will buy you 5 pathfinders. The squad is also slow (heavy weapons and 6 inch movement), incredibly vulnerable in close combat and die instantly to flamers. This is amplified by the relative poorness of Sniper Rifles in general. Its not just Eldar Pathfinders, all sniper rifles are bad in 40K. Its something of an anomaly, but they are just too expensive with too low volume of fire to make up for it. Being forced to always wound on a 4+ just further lowers the squads damage output.

Lets look at the standard objective oriented GJB squad.
129 points gets 3 Guardian Jetbikes with one upgraded to a shuri cannon, and a warlock with a singing spear and the embolden power. The squad has a 3+ armor save and a 3+ cover save when they turbo boosting (meaning you get a solid save from nearly everything), they also have 24 inch movement when they turbo boost, which helps them flit about to wherever they need to be. When an enemy squad closes in on pathfinders, you lose both an objective and a troop squad, when they close in on Guardian Jetbikes... the bikes flit to a different objective and you lose neither. In a game where fast assault units, vehicles, and flamers are becoming more and more common, Pathfinders really have nothing on jetbikes in terms of scoring ability.

Now lets look at fire power. The Jetbikes get an s6 gun, and a singing spear. This allows them to effectively engage both infantry and vehicles better than pathfinders. The only target that pathfinders will surpass them against is Monsterous creatures.

As to Mantis' point about getting lucky against a flat-outted Stormraven, I posit that the jetbikes would have an even easier time. I can't count the number of times Leman Russ Battle Tanks, Vendettas, Rhinos, and other Vehicles have been skewered by my warlock's spear in shooting or assault. Jetbikes have the speed to get side and even rear armor shots, and when you blast 3 s6 shots and 1 s9 shot into side or rear armor your enemy will pale a bit.

I realize that Guardian Jetbikes are somewhat expensive, but they are by far the best support for a speed hybrid list. This is because they don't slow down your army, and give your opponent any anchored units to bear down on. I got 9 Guardian Bikes on ebay for 90 dollars. Before I got my bikes I often used foot Pathfinders and Guardian Defenders- Jetbikes outperformed them accross the board. Being able to cherry pick an objective on turn 5 is far superior to staking one out and hoping the enemy doesn't come and kick you off.

Of all the expenditures I have spent on my Eldar army, I am happiest with my bikes (my storm guardians come in at a close 2nd)

Plus, you can move eldar jetbikes 6 inches in the assault phase and if your really cheeky argue they could then assault as the rules don't specifically state you can't.

willydstyle wrote:Wraithlords are too expensive for two guns, and are not durable.

Are you sure about that? Lets compare the WL to a equally geared dread. The WL with a BL / ML costs 155 points, while a dread with a TL LC and ML costs 145 points.

* Both units are walkers, and have about the same difficulty getting cover.
* The dread can bring a little better firepower to the table (as his weapon is TL)
* The wraithlord has to stay near warlocks, while while dread can be anywhere, giving the edge to the dread
* The wraithlord is a MC and is a beast in assault. The dread falls behind in that area unless he sacrifices 1/2 his firepower
* The wrathlord is arguably tougher than the dread. A krak missle has a ~33% of effecting the dread, and a ~7.31% of killing it. The 'lord just keeps going at full power until it takes its 3 wounds, which each ML having a 1/2 chance of wounding. A MG only does 1 wounds to the 'lord, where it will blow up the dread. Poisoned weapons are more effective against the 'lord. Given the ability to keep at full strength, I give the edge to the 'lord
* Both models can move and fire all their weapons, an advantage over long fangs or most tanks.

Overall, I think the wrathlord is still a decent buy. One alone in an army is not enough, but 3 of them with an avatar will be something tough to deal with. You don't see them in mech'dar lists because they are slow and need a warlock babysitter. In foot'dar lists I can see them having a role.

+1 for Lord he seems to be even more effective than dread if consider his "free of charge" flamethowers! But there is one question: is it possible to provide the Lord with mobile cover in the footdar lists without wraith guards?

Abu_Basha wrote:+1 for Lord he seems to be even more effective than dread if consider his "free of charge" flamethowers! But there is one question: is it possible to provide the Lord with mobile cover in the footdar lists without wraith guards?

What he said, those flamers are useful for firing off before an assault if it looks like it's the best option for the WL to do, or just to thin out the threat of an assault to keep the WL free to fire instead of being caught up in an assault.

Thom wrote:Definitely worth it. A 25% points increase is indeed steep, but then again the point costs for the entire Eldar codex are steep. 4+ to wound, always, 5+ rending on a 36'' ranged weapon is jawsome, the +1 cover save saved by pathfinders more than once.

Sorry for the nit-pick, but pathfinders are not rending on a 5+. Their better.
* On a 5+ to hit, they count as AP1. This means that 1/3 of your shots will ignore armor saves and FNP.
* When rolling to wound, rolls of a 6 count as rending, which also ignore armor saves and FNP.

This does not mean that half the shots ignore armor and FNP, but around 38% or so of the shots will. That's pretty sweet.
If you have a farseer guide the missed shots, you will increase that number by a few percentage points as well.

labmouse42 wrote:

willydstyle wrote:Wraithlords are too expensive for two guns, and are not durable.

Are you sure about that? Lets compare the WL to a equally geared dread. The WL with a BL / ML costs 155 points, while a dread with a TL LC and ML costs 145 points.

* Both units are walkers, and have about the same difficulty getting cover.
* The dread can bring a little better firepower to the table (as his weapon is TL)
* The wraithlord has to stay near warlocks, while while dread can be anywhere, giving the edge to the dread
* The wraithlord is a MC and is a beast in assault. The dread falls behind in that area unless he sacrifices 1/2 his firepower
* The wrathlord is arguably tougher than the dread. A krak missle has a ~33% of effecting the dread, and a ~7.31% of killing it. The 'lord just keeps going at full power until it takes its 3 wounds, which each ML having a 1/2 chance of wounding. A MG only does 1 wounds to the 'lord, where it will blow up the dread. Poisoned weapons are more effective against the 'lord. Given the ability to keep at full strength, I give the edge to the 'lord
* Both models can move and fire all their weapons, an advantage over long fangs or most tanks.

Overall, I think the wrathlord is still a decent buy. One alone in an army is not enough, but 3 of them with an avatar will be something tough to deal with. You don't see them in mech'dar lists because they are slow and need a warlock babysitter. In foot'dar lists I can see them having a role.

Several differences: Dreadnoughts have a lower model profile. There's a large difference between getting cover, and *not* getting cover. Neither possess Fleet so initiating charges is generally ill-advised anyway. Dreadnoughts additionally have the option to Drop Pod, Stormraven, or otherwise possess additional deployment options, and failing that, the Dual Autocannon Configuration possesses superior range to any setup the Wraithlord gets.

Can Wraithlords work? Perhaps. Basically, what I am finding is Wraithlords are for board control instead of shooting (as for the cost...you could grab a Falcon, Pair of Walkers, another Serpent...etc), and need other hard targets (like said vehicles) so that they aren't AT target numero uno and so you can have a chance of advancing them midfield while they attain 50% cover. That, and tankshock when used properly can push enemies *closer* to your Wraithlords for purposes of speeding up their demise in assault, and you can negate the ability of certain opponents to Combat Tactics/flee away from said encounters by having said elements in place for off-table escort duty.

Nice straw man comparing wraithlords to dreads. That was *not* the claim that I was trying to make. The fact of the matter is, in a footdar list if WLs are your only fire support (because they *are*, unless you bring war walkers instead) you're bringing two guns for 155 points. In a footdar list, I don't see how it is possible to get a wraithlord cover, even with wraithguard, as they would cover its spindly legs, which are less than 50% of the "body" of the model. This means, that on average, if you're opponent wants to bother shooting at them at all, it takes 9 BS4 krak missile shots to down a wraithlord. How many competitive armies have twice that number of krak missiles per turn? Oh, almost all of them you say? They fare even worse against lascannons, which are quite common against IG or SW.

Wraithlords can also be killed by any guns str 5 or more, or poison. This means that they can be killed not only by anti-tank, but by volume of fire lists as well. I would just cry to see what happens to a triple-wraithlord list against most DE lists. Even poison Gants bring wraithlords down quickly in CC.

As far as wraithlords being "beasts" in CC, you need a wraithsword to make their 2 attacks anywhere near reliable, and that means giving up a ranged gun. Even with the sword, the fact that the Lord only has two attacks means that you're not exactly going to be killing lots of models with him, and combat resolution isn't going to be going hugely in your favor to try to break the enemy. Khaine save you if you get stuck in CC with a fearless unit, because you'll be there for a while, popping, on average, one model per turn with your "beastly" two swings.

I speak from the experience of having played a *lot* of games with a hybrid wraithlord/mechdar army, an army where I could actually get my lords cover from tanks, and they still weren't worth a damn.

willydstyle wrote:Nice straw man comparing wraithlords to dreads. That was *not* the claim that I was trying to make.

Respectfully, I disagree with you that you state I was making a strawman argument. Your exact wording was "Wraithlords are too expensive for two guns, and are not durable"

A strawman would be drawing the argument away from the 'expensive' aspect, not focusing on it as a comparison. The best way to utilize points is to compare units between armies. If you cannot make such comparisons then what is the purpose of assigning point costs to models? The purpose of the point cost is to balance the power between models. While this comparison is not a perfect measuring stick -- as the same model may be more effective in one army than another -- its the best one I think there is.

Strawman examples
Person A: We should liberalize the laws on beer.
Person B: No, any society with unrestricted access to intoxicants loses its work ethic and goes only for immediate gratification.

Person A: Our society should spend more money helping the poor.
Person B: Studies show that handouts don't work; they just create more poverty and humiliate the recipients. That money could be better spent.

I propose to you that a strawman against your statement would be "Wrathlords are useful because of all the models they can kill" That would be ignoring the context of your argument and attempting to shift the discussion away from the ' what wrathlords can kill vs their cost/durability ratios'

Aside from that, as usual, your post has many insightful points. There are a few counter-points that I would like to add.
* WLs in a footdar army are not top-end competitive. In all aspects they fail compares to top-teir competitive armies.
* Nearly any single model will fall to 9 BS4 MLs per turn. Is that a fair comparison?
* If they WLs are being targeted by the 18 MLs per turn, then the accompanying avatar will not be targeted.
* I define the WL as a 'beast' due to the STR 10 hits that roll 2d6 on vehicle penetration (from being a MC). One WL will not crush armies, but it can do a decent job. It is loads better than the dread with 2 ranged weapons in assault. Remember also that one WL will not be going into assault alone, and should be accompanied by the others and with Khaine.

I agree with you in that they are not useful in a hybrid army. I also agree with you that poisoned weapons are highly effective at taking them down -- even sterngaurd can use those. They are not an end-all be-all unit that you cannot go without. What I will say is that 3 of them in a footdar list is a decent buy for the points. . It provides better anti-transport popping than guardian platforms through a higher BS, and will draw a good deal of fire. In assault it can even tear up vehicles and will pop a MEQ or two a turn.

Your first example is actually a "slippery slope" fallacy.

A straw man is any time you argue against a position that your opponent (in the setting of a debate) did not actually claim.

When you compare a wraithlord to the other HS slots, a fire prism or falcon with cover and holo fields actually stands a decent chance of surviving those same ML slots, and can fire effectively at longer range, granting even more protection. Granted a prism only brings *one* gun, it is a very useful one.

One of the problems with Avatar-lead Eldar in general though, is that both wraithlords and fire fail to be high enough priority targets to actually draw fire away from that Avatar. He's such a lynch-pin model that your opponent would be a fool not to try to kill him first.

willydstyle wrote:
One of the problems with Avatar-lead Eldar in general though, is that both wraithlords and fire fail to be high enough priority targets to actually draw fire away from that Avatar. He's such a lynch-pin model that your opponent would be a fool not to try to kill him first.

You would be surprised. With the longer range on the WL weapons I've seen people go for them first with ranged weapons. There is also the disadvantage to the fearless rule in assaults, so at times the avatar being alive can be a liability causing additional causualties in units.
In the eldar heavy support slots we're spoilt for good selections*, with varying effectiveness in peoples eyes. With them being the eldar armys heavy hitters no matter what selections an army has from it the opponent would be well served taking them out. That many krak missiles is going to make a dent in any armies heavy support selections, no matter if it is 2 WL's, 2 fire prisms or 2 predators.


*I am ofcourse ignoring the platform selections in the term good selections

However, the Avatar itself has such a small area it can threaten per turn, that in itself it can actually be ignored for at least two turns by a fair few armies. The need to advance for objectives can additionally set up a scenario where you can prime a multiassault into the Eldar infantry and MCs, then No Retreat the Eldar monsters in turn. This in itself is not an issue, were it not for the fact (foot Eldar, for clarification) Eldar cannot get their infantry quickly from point A to point B, spawn them for purposes of sacrificialness, etc.

That said...barring poison, Wraithlords have roughly the same survivability Prisms have (assuming cover for both, meaning mix mech). The difference is in 40k, a lot of shooting is based on the concept of negating the ability to strike back. Shakes/stuns/immobilization. Should Prism fail a save, 5 out of 6 Glancing or Penetrating results will prevent it from engaging in effective return fire. Should a Wraithlord fail a save? It...takes a wound. Of course, Prisms can also turn into guided missiles on several of those results, but *that* is (unless carefully prepared) throwing your army into the enemy.

willydstyle wrote:Your first example is actually a "slippery slope" fallacy.

I napped that example from wikipedia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man
If you update that page to include a warhammer reference you would be my hero.