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I used to play with people from a couple of different stores, and at each one there was of course, SM players. At one store, the fella I played against was adamant that EVERY space marine has a bolt pistol that can be fired instead of their modeled weaponry. That makes sense to a certain degree, as tac marines generally carry one weapon (bolter, or other specialized weapon). Bolt pistol is listed in their wargear, but most of the time it is contingent upon their only having one weapon. IE: a captain modeled with a power fist and a storm bolter would never be able to claim having a bolt pistol... not that he would want to.

Where it is confusing is with certain independent characters whose official model seems to go against this. For instance, I use Captain Shrike in almost all my battles. His official GW model has a pair of giant lightning claws and no bolt pistol, let alone a holster for said pistol. But, his wargear loadout claims he does indeed have a pistol, along with the Raven's Talons. He also has a BS of 5, indicating to me that he can actually shoot something, even though with a pair of claws attached it would appear impossible. I have been accused of cheating, as I will take his bolt pistol shot in the shooting phase (not that it usually matters that much as 5 attacks on the charge with iniative 5 and WS 6 re-rolling failed wounds usually shreds most things). So according to the wysiwyg rule, Shrike should not have a bolt pistol... yet he does.

Anyone clarify this?

Read you are codex... end of discussion.

I have read my dex, along with the rule book. This seems to be an inconsistency.

Could you at least point me in the right direction as to where I could find something relating to this?

Codex loadout > Wysiwig.
If it says in shrikes entry that he has a pistol, then he has a pistol, regardless of whether or not GW bothered to put one on his model.

No, there is no inconsistency.

Tac marines have a bolter and bolt pistol. It does not matter what they are armed with on the model - that is what they have.

Only upgrades must be modelled, not default equipment.

nosferatu1001 wrote:No, there is no inconsistency.

Tac marines have a bolter and bolt pistol. It does not matter what they are armed with on the model - that is what they have.

Only upgrades must be modelled, not default equipment.

So a plasma cannon armed tac marine can fire his bolter, or bolt pistol regardless of modeling?

shrike's wingnut wrote:So a plasma cannon armed tac marine can fire his bolter, or bolt pistol regardless of modeling?

A plasma cannon-armed tac marine doesn't have a bolter. He does still have his pistol, though.

These days, Marines come standard with pistols and grenades. Whether or not these are modeled makes little difference to most players.
The bolter depends on the options you choose. Generally, choosing an upgrade weapon replaces the bolter.

insaniak wrote:

shrike's wingnut wrote:So a plasma cannon armed tac marine can fire his bolter, or bolt pistol regardless of modeling?

A plasma cannon-armed tac marine doesn't have a bolter. He does still have his pistol, though.

These days, Marines come standard with pistols and grenades. Whether or not these are modeled makes little difference to most players.
The bolter depends on the options you choose. Generally, choosing an upgrade weapon replaces the bolter.

Thanks! That is what I figured, but I needed some clarification from some vets of the hobby - I'm fairly noob (started in 2008 or 09) and there are still little nuances to the rules that seem to make little sense.

shrike's wingnut wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:No, there is no inconsistency.

Tac marines have a bolter and bolt pistol. It does not matter what they are armed with on the model - that is what they have.

Only upgrades must be modelled, not default equipment.

So a plasma cannon armed tac marine can fire his bolter, or bolt pistol regardless of modeling?

No, because he gives up his Bolter in order to have the plasma cannon - again, clearly written in the codex.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

shrike's wingnut wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:No, there is no inconsistency.

Tac marines have a bolter and bolt pistol. It does not matter what they are armed with on the model - that is what they have.

Only upgrades must be modelled, not default equipment.

So a plasma cannon armed tac marine can fire his bolter, or bolt pistol regardless of modeling?

No, because he gives up his Bolter in order to have the plasma cannon - again, clearly written in the codex.

Easy nosferatu... Don't you remember the age old saying, "there are no stupid questions, only stupid people." I seem to fall the latter category. Thanks all. Much appreciated.

shrike's wingnut wrote:Easy nosferatu... Don't you remember the age old saying, "there are no stupid questions, only stupid people." I seem to fall the latter category. Thanks all. Much appreciated.

Stupid people already know better, they don't ask questions. ;-)

Its ok, we've all been there with the rules

I rarely see IG players model their search light, yet they all have standard anyway.

A tac marine exchanges his Bolter for his Plasma Cannon, as per the aforementioned codex, so he wouldn't be able to fire that.
He would be able to fire his Bolt Pistol though.

You seem to think that what the model is actually equipped with have any relevance to what he actually, according to the rules, is equipped with.

The model is a marker representing the unit, not the other way around.


EDIT. mental note to self. Remember to press Refresh before you answer. Especially if you are watching a stream that might grab your attention for some time.

The general consensus in places in play is that standard equipment that can not be replaced at all doesn't NEED to be modeled. Examples include the aforementioned searchlights on Imperial vehicles, and bolt pistols and grenades on tac marines. Another is that Chaos space marines are all armed with a bolter, a bolt pistol and a CCW as standard, and most people won't go the length of modeling all 3 on every marine.

Interestingly, I don't seem to recall any actual rule on WYSIWYG except with characters. Common convention is that you have to model upgrades and that models are always assumed to have their default gear (unless it gets replaced by aforementioned upgrade), but there is no actual rule stating as such that I can think of.

I'd be happy to be proven wrong, of course.

WYSIWYG has always been more of a player convention than anything required by the rules, outside of tournament play.

insaniak wrote:WYSIWYG has always been more of a player convention than anything required by the rules, outside of tournament play.

Excepting for it being in the actual rules.

Of course, not abiding it through the "Count-as" rules is built in to this editions WYSIWYG rules.

The rules only really cover WYSIWYG for characters and certain codexes.

WYSIWYG in actual application has nothing to do with the rules. It's all about what the players choose to do.

The most important thing is for your model to have the most powerful weapon or "upgrade" modeled on him so that your opponent doesn't forget what he is dealing with, and so that you remember to fire your "plasma" gun. the minor weapons aren't required for modeling and if someone told me that I had have a pistol on the model, I would laugh in his face.

Also, if it makes you feel any better about Shrike, remember that lightning claws are retractable, so he certainly is able to hold his pistol. Although, that doesn't address the issue of where he is hiding it... best not to think about that one.

Even at tournaments, WYSIWYG is a pretty fluid thing.

Where are his grenades? In his grenade pouch, you can't see it because it's built into his armor. Who are you to tell me where my dude keeps his grenades?

Same goes for pistols. Anything small enough to reasonably fit in a pocket or something is basically always WYSIWYG if someone wants to be picky.

lledwey wrote:Also, if it makes you feel any better about Shrike, remember that lightning claws are retractable, so he certainly is able to hold his pistol. Although, that doesn't address the issue of where he is hiding it... best not to think about that one.

Hilarious! Blasphemy, but Funny as hell. The ordo hereticus will hear of this...

Vanilla CSM have Bolter/Bolt Pistol/and CCW in their standard wargear. So I can model my dudes with bolters or with pistols @ chain weapons at my discretion. if my aspiring champion bought a plasma pistol and powerfist, however, this must be shown. If anyone is wysiwig-in you on standard wargear they probably suck anyway. Shred them up with Shrike in CC and call it a day, or whip out your cellphone and call your local GW store.
Sounds slowed, but the Memphis Bunker is ALWAYS helpful on that sort of front.
And finally, if you get a rule clarification from a redshirt and your opponent is still being a douche just kick him in the nuts and play someone else instead. You just can't reason with some people.

Sharkvictim wrote:Vanilla CSM have Bolter/Bolt Pistol/and CCW in their standard wargear. So I can model my dudes with bolters or with pistols @ chain weapons at my discretion. if my aspiring champion bought a plasma pistol and powerfist, however, this must be shown. If anyone is wysiwig-in you on standard wargear they probably suck anyway. Shred them up with Shrike in CC and call it a day, or whip out your cellphone and call your local GW store.
Sounds slowed, but the Memphis Bunker is ALWAYS helpful on that sort of front.
And finally, if you get a rule clarification from a redshirt and your opponent is still being a douche just kick him in the nuts and play someone else instead. You just can't reason with some people.

Words of wisdom. I will definitely consider the ball kick for a douchie opponent... might get me banned from a store or two but hell, in the end, TOTALLY worth it.

I don't know, at my GW one of the staff members spear tackled some teen douche bag who was calling him a nerd.

Cool story, bro.

What you don't believe me?
Edit: sarcasm intended

SoloFalcon1138 wrote:Read you are codex... end of discussion.

I hate answers like these. Do you need to be more rude with your answers?

OP Shrike can indeed use his bolt pistol before charging, even though it seems odd but you can always image the blot pistol built into one of the lightning claws.

The biggest thing that bothers me and a lot of people when it comes to counts as or proxying weapons is when it comes time to shoot, who has it? I don't know how many times i forgot to ask and make note and then all of a sudden the two guys at the front of the squad are the ones with the melta guns, or the guy who just so happens to have line of sight has the missile launcher, even though they just have bolters or something. Meanwhile my guys with the actual weapons may not have line of sight or aren't at the very front of the squad, so compared to them I'm at a disadvantage for having the proper models.